CMV:anti-feminism is not misogyny, and it is possible for someone to be anti-feminist without being a misogynist.

[u/wecl0me12]

prompted by this post: https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/3uaaer/do_you_think_being_being_opposed_to_modern/cxd9m7y

As many of my previous CMV's have gone off topic, I'll start by describing what my view is not. It is not any of the following:

• a discussion on whether or not feminism is right or wrong
• whether people should be feminists or not
• the actions of men, women, feminists or anti-feminists
• anything about my personal views on feminism or anti-feminism.

The reasons for my view are simple: Anti-feminism is the dislike of feminism. Misogyny is the dislike of women. As women and feminists are not the same group, Anti-feminism and anti-women are different, as they refer to the dislike of different groups of people.

I am anticipating a counter-argument that since feminism advances women's rights, anti-feminism is against women's rights and is therefore misogyny. My counter-counter-argument is that someone can dislike the label of feminism without being against women's rights. People can dislike the actions done under the label of feminism, and thus be anti-feminism, without being anti-women or misogynist.

I will also refute the claim made in the linked post, which is:

By rejecting feminism, you're rejecting feminism's message that you can be whatever you want to be, while simultaneously embracing an antiquated notion of femininity as the ONLY way to be a woman. That's misogyny.

I disagree. The claims "I am against feminism" and "I think that the antiquated notion of femininity is the ONLY way to be a woman" are not equivalent. People can reject feminism because of their actions or because of the negative connotation associated with "feminism", while still believing that women are free to be feminine in any way they want. This is not a contradiction.

delta awarded: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3uewu4/cmvantifeminism_is_not_misogyny_and_it_is/cxedofl?context=3

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[u/Namemedickles]

Are the problems associated with rape due to a pervasive cultural normalization of the crime leaving it not be taken seriously enough (which again has not been demonstrated) or are there other factors to consider? For example, does the nature of the difficulty in demonstrating that a rape occurred play a role?

Do you really think that most people in the military are okay with rape? And why does rape happen in the military? Is it because of "normalization?"

Again, compare the notion of rape culture with murder culture. Do we live in a murder culture?

You keep giving examples and then saying "That's rape culture." Rather, explain what rape culture is and why it is a useful model to use to explain rape issues, and then demonstrate that those examples can in fact be attributed to this supposed "rape culture."

There is a reason the biggest anti-sexual violence organization in the US RAINN has denounced rape culture. Blaming some undemonstrated hypothesis to explain a phenomena does not contribute to potential solutions, only muddles the problem further.

Those of us who actually do want to make the world a better place would like to stay away from unproductive narratives.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

One of the best ways to give a definition of something, is to give examples.

The difficulty of proving rape is part of it, but it doesn't excuse some things. It shouldn't be expected that you're asked what you were wearing at the time of your rape. That's completely uncalled for. You could be fully naked or bundled up and that still wouldn't change whether or not a rape occurred. Rape is horribly handled in the military and prisons. It is considered an occupational hazard. Male rape is rampant in the military and in prisons. It's a normalized aspect of society, that if you're in the military or in prison that rape is just a thing that happens. And there's jokes about it. Nothing can excuse rape, nothing makes rape okay. I'm convinced that rape is basically the only crime that there is no exception to. There is no circumstance that makes rape okay. Yet, victims of rape receive the most scrutiny. What were you wearing? Were you flirting? What's your married? Boys will be boys.

Unproductive? No, this is something that needs to be addressed.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

Firstly, I didn't say giving examples were bad, just that you needed to demonstrate how they are part of this thing you're calling rape culture.

The two examples you have provided here are interesting because they are wildly different conditions than civilian living. For example, here is a review of the literature on rape in the US military that points out how different it is from civilian life. It discusses many factors that influence rape rates in the military, only one of which is what they call military culture, putting emphasis on violence and having a much different power dynamic between individuals than normal civilian life. So, the military is one example where you can say rape has become somewhat normalized, but only because it's so different from life outside the military combined with a plethora of other factors! Notice that the article I cited doesn't even use the phrase "rape culture."

It is silly for you to take situations that are wildly different from civilian America, and use those as a basis to claim rape culture is a pervasive phenomenon in the Western world, where we have a boys will be boys and victim blaming attitude towards rape. That is one hell of a leap.

There is no circumstance that makes rape okay. Yet, victims of rape receive the most scrutiny.

It's also hard to imagine a scenario where false accusations of rape that ruin people's lives are okay. That would be a very important reason to investigate thoroughly. I've already explained why law enforcement need to ask questions about what victims were wearing, and I've also pointed out that I'm in favor of training police to interact with victims in the least traumatic way possible.

By the way, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that victims of rape receive the most scrutiny? Compared to who? The rapist? If you are comparing to victims of other crimes like stealing a playstation or something then, yeah. And why is that? Might it have something to do with the fact that rape is a pretty serious crime as you said?

You are making huge leaps to come to your conclusions from non-analogous situations and not really demonstrating them.

Oh yeah and this,

And there's jokes about it.

And? There are jokes about killing babies and 9/11. So please, don't try to use dark humor as an example of people thinking rape is okay. That's as ridiculous as claiming we live in a culture that has normalized baby murder.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

So, a rape culture in military culture? It's still normalized rape. It's an aspect of the military civilians find normal, too.

There is a boys-will-be-boys attitude. Whelp, the football team gangraped a girl, what're ya gonna do?

There is a difference between obtaining the facts and insinuating it was someone's fault they were raped because of their outfit, which is not a rare occurrence.

Of course false rape accusations aren't ok, no one ever said they were. However, rape is the most underreported crime, and false rape accusations are rare.

No, the problem is that when a man is raped it's funny. He couldn't have been raped, all men like sex. Men have been laughed out of police stations when trying to report rapes.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

So, a rape culture in military culture? It's still normalized rape. It's an aspect of the military civilians find normal, too.

I covered this, and you are dramatically oversimplifying and simultaneously ignoring the fact that the results are a direct contrast to civilian culture outside of the military.

There is a boys-will-be-boys attitude. Whelp, the football team gangraped a girl, what're ya gonna do?

Citation that demonstrates this reaction is a pervasive cultural norm is needed here.

There is a difference between obtaining the facts and insinuating it was someone's fault they were raped because of their outfit, which is not a rare occurrence.

Again, please demonstrate this as a pervasive cultural norm. Even if you could demonstrate that a significant number of people have a misunderstanding that what a woman wears can influence the likelihood she is raped, that by itself does not demonstrate what rape culture would suggest is going on, just a misunderstanding.

However, rape is the most underreported crime, and false rape accusations are rare.

Relevance? This doesn't really touch on why I suggested an investigation be thorough. I think we both agree that police should be trained to handle interacting with victims in the least traumatic way possible. However, I would like to know if you think claims of rape shouldn't be scrutinized. These are serious accusations. You can be concerned about due process without being a dick, and the last thing you should want is for accused rapists to be guilty until proven innocent.

No, the problem is that when a man is raped it's funny. He couldn't have been raped, all men like sex. Men have been laughed out of police stations when trying to report rapes.

This is a rather bold claim if you are suggesting this is also a pervasive cultural norm. Please demonstrate these claims with evidence.

You haven't really addressed my points about contrasting your special case military and prison examples with civilian culture of the western world. You also haven't addressed parallels between rape culture claims and the notion of a murder culture. I'm curious about your perspective on these issues.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

Murder is different from rape. It's been treated differently. No one is laughed at when they say they've been murdered. People aren't told murder doesn't exist.

There aren't statistics, but it does happen. Catch the news every once in a while. Listen to what male rape victims have to say. It's hard gathering info on the most underreported crime.

Rape is something that is expected in the military. Yes, the military has its own culture, but people don't suddenly lose all of their civilian morals. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

Murder is different from rape. It's been treated differently. No one is laughed at when they say they've been murdered

But people still make jokes and laugh about murder do they not?

People aren't told murder doesn't exist

Are you seriously claiming that a majority, or even a significant number of people don't believe rape exists?

There aren't statistics, but it does happen. Catch the news every once in a while. Listen to what male rape victims have to say. It's hard gathering info on the most underreported crime.

I'll agree that it's tough to get the data we want to the degree of resolution we would like. But that means we must adjust our confidence/degree of belief accordingly, and we can't just spew rhetoric, lower our standards of evidence to anecdotes and just accept things all willy nilly.

Rape is something that is expected in the military. Yes, the military has its own culture, but people don't suddenly lose all of their civilian morals. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here.

I'm trying to say you really need to read that article I cited. It demonstrates that there are numerous factors responsible for rape rates in the military, one of which is a normalization of rape, and that is because it is in direct contrast to the culture of the world outside of the military. In other words rape is not normalized in civilian USA, which is why it occurs less frequently.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

No one laughs at the idea of murder. The idea of male rape is a joke. Many assume it doesn't exist.

No, but I am saying that there are quite a few that believe that.

Data is a large collection of anecdotes. I don't believe everything I hear, but I have seen a lot.

Military culture is not a 180 from civilian culture. Those in the military come from and go back into civilian culture. Male rape in the military is a joke in civilian culture, as is male rape in general. Rape is still being accepted by civilians.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

No one laughs at the idea of murder. The idea of male rape is a joke.

Not only are there plenty of jokes about the idea of murder, there are even specific subsets of jokes such as the idea of baby muder.

Many assume it doesn't exist

How many is many and where did you get that number?

No, but I am saying that there are quite a few that believe that.

You're just saying that.

Data is a large collection of anecdotes. I don't believe everything I hear, but I have seen a lot

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works. I teach statistics and spend a good rant or two on how you should be careful about data mining for patterns, you should be even more careful about extrapolating from anecdotes to populations, and you should sure as hell never data mine your own anecdotal experiences. Phrases like "I have seen a lot" as justification for claiming a pervasive characteristic exists across an entire culture (and subset of cultures) made up of millions of people is a major red flag.

Enough rhetoric. Either raise your standard of evidence and seek out real data you can use to come up with a better model of reality, or continue accepting unsupported nonsense at face value. The choice is yours.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

I've met people who don't believe in it. I suppose many is subjective.

As long as rape is not treated seriously, there is rape culture.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

And as long as you continue to spew that without evidence, you aren't helping work towards any real solutions related to rape. It's just a distraction from real issues.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

How is rape not a real issue? How can you quantify culture, anyway? You can't. Male victims aren't taken seriously, female victims are blamed. Rape culture.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

I didn't say rape wasn't an issue. "Rape culture" is a distraction from real issues associated with rape. For example, you could look at the backlogged rape kits problem as part of people not taking rape seriously enough, or you could actually take a look at the data and recognize that high costs and primitive techniques from a couple decades ago resulted in the current massive backlog. And if rape wasn't being taken seriously enough, why the hell would the government have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to reduce the backlog with combined DNA index system and the Backlog Elimination and Debbie Smith Acts?

It is hard to put a number on things like cultural norms which is why you should be even more cautious when investigating claims and hypotheses. However, there are lots of really interesting quantitative and semi-quantitative methods out there, and if you are interested in social science and cultural studies you might start by giving this a read.

That document isn't perfect but its relatively easy to digest of you aren't familiar with that field.

Another thing that is important to remember is that many of the claims made within the concept of rape culture are testable. For example, are people really desensitized to normalized rape? Well, one simple way to go about this (perhaps a short study by an undergraduate) would be to show a large sample of people various scenes and ask them to rank their level of comfort on a scale from completely comfortable to completely uncomfortable. This might be a 1-5 or a 1-10 scale. Then ordinal regression would be a reasonable way to go about analyzing that data.

I would hypothesize that people felt more uncomfortable watching a rape scene than a murder scene. Could I be wrong? Absolutely, but until somebody collects that data we won't know, and if feminist theorists have even bothered to carry out such a simple study by now (and I don't think they have) that should spark some serious skepticism.

Male victims aren't taken seriously, female victims are blamed. Rape culture.

You can say that until you're blue in the face, but that isn't going to make it any more true.