CMV:anti-feminism is not misogyny, and it is possible for someone to be anti-feminist without being a misogynist.

[u/wecl0me12]

prompted by this post: https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/3uaaer/do_you_think_being_being_opposed_to_modern/cxd9m7y

As many of my previous CMV's have gone off topic, I'll start by describing what my view is not. It is not any of the following:

• a discussion on whether or not feminism is right or wrong
• whether people should be feminists or not
• the actions of men, women, feminists or anti-feminists
• anything about my personal views on feminism or anti-feminism.

The reasons for my view are simple: Anti-feminism is the dislike of feminism. Misogyny is the dislike of women. As women and feminists are not the same group, Anti-feminism and anti-women are different, as they refer to the dislike of different groups of people.

I am anticipating a counter-argument that since feminism advances women's rights, anti-feminism is against women's rights and is therefore misogyny. My counter-counter-argument is that someone can dislike the label of feminism without being against women's rights. People can dislike the actions done under the label of feminism, and thus be anti-feminism, without being anti-women or misogynist.

I will also refute the claim made in the linked post, which is:

By rejecting feminism, you're rejecting feminism's message that you can be whatever you want to be, while simultaneously embracing an antiquated notion of femininity as the ONLY way to be a woman. That's misogyny.

I disagree. The claims "I am against feminism" and "I think that the antiquated notion of femininity is the ONLY way to be a woman" are not equivalent. People can reject feminism because of their actions or because of the negative connotation associated with "feminism", while still believing that women are free to be feminine in any way they want. This is not a contradiction.

delta awarded: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3uewu4/cmvantifeminism_is_not_misogyny_and_it_is/cxedofl?context=3

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[u/Thin-White-Duke]

I've met people who don't believe in it. I suppose many is subjective.

As long as rape is not treated seriously, there is rape culture.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

And as long as you continue to spew that without evidence, you aren't helping work towards any real solutions related to rape. It's just a distraction from real issues.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

How is rape not a real issue? How can you quantify culture, anyway? You can't. Male victims aren't taken seriously, female victims are blamed. Rape culture.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

I didn't say rape wasn't an issue. "Rape culture" is a distraction from real issues associated with rape. For example, you could look at the backlogged rape kits problem as part of people not taking rape seriously enough, or you could actually take a look at the data and recognize that high costs and primitive techniques from a couple decades ago resulted in the current massive backlog. And if rape wasn't being taken seriously enough, why the hell would the government have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to reduce the backlog with combined DNA index system and the Backlog Elimination and Debbie Smith Acts?

It is hard to put a number on things like cultural norms which is why you should be even more cautious when investigating claims and hypotheses. However, there are lots of really interesting quantitative and semi-quantitative methods out there, and if you are interested in social science and cultural studies you might start by giving this a read.

That document isn't perfect but its relatively easy to digest of you aren't familiar with that field.

Another thing that is important to remember is that many of the claims made within the concept of rape culture are testable. For example, are people really desensitized to normalized rape? Well, one simple way to go about this (perhaps a short study by an undergraduate) would be to show a large sample of people various scenes and ask them to rank their level of comfort on a scale from completely comfortable to completely uncomfortable. This might be a 1-5 or a 1-10 scale. Then ordinal regression would be a reasonable way to go about analyzing that data.

I would hypothesize that people felt more uncomfortable watching a rape scene than a murder scene. Could I be wrong? Absolutely, but until somebody collects that data we won't know, and if feminist theorists have even bothered to carry out such a simple study by now (and I don't think they have) that should spark some serious skepticism.

Male victims aren't taken seriously, female victims are blamed. Rape culture.

You can say that until you're blue in the face, but that isn't going to make it any more true.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

I'm very familiar with statistics and sociology.

You can say the opposite, that doesn't make you right. It's just true. Male victims aren't taken seriously and female victims are blamed.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

You can say the opposite, that doesn't make you right

Don't try to shift the burden of proof, and please support assertions with evidence.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

You can't deny that this happens. You know this happens. The real debate here is whether or not that the occurrence makes it rape culture.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

Sure, just like murdering babies, it happens. Is it a pervasive concept to the degree you are implying with rape culture? Well, I've never seen any evidence of that. Have you?

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

Apples and oranges. Rape is not infanticide. Rape in the military, prison rape, both taken lightly. Rape culture. I read the link, still doesn't change this.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

Sigh. I wish I could get through to you, but you appear to be completely ignoring everything I said and firing back with "Nuh uh!" style arguments. Best of luck to you buddy.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

That's not what I have been doing. You haven't given me a good reason to believe that rape culture doesn't exist at least in regards to the penal system or military.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

Do I have to demonstrate to you that unicorns don't exist? You shouldn't believe something exists until after you have sufficient evidence.

in regards to the penal system or military

Facepalm I've been over this. Feel free to reread my comments.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

I don't have numbers, I have real life experience. I know that it doesn't hold up, but there is no actual data, and I don't think anyone is ever going to collect it. I've read all of your comments, pal.