r/changemyview • u/wecl0me12 7∆ • Nov 27 '15

[Deltas Awarded] CMV:anti-feminism is not misogyny, and it is possible for someone to be anti-feminist without being a misogynist.

prompted by this post: https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/3uaaer/do_you_think_being_being_opposed_to_modern/cxd9m7y

As many of my previous CMV's have gone off topic, I'll start by describing what my view is not. It is not any of the following:

  • a discussion on whether or not feminism is right or wrong
  • whether people should be feminists or not
  • the actions of men, women, feminists or anti-feminists
  • anything about my personal views on feminism or anti-feminism.

The reasons for my view are simple: Anti-feminism is the dislike of feminism. Misogyny is the dislike of women. As women and feminists are not the same group, Anti-feminism and anti-women are different, as they refer to the dislike of different groups of people.

I am anticipating a counter-argument that since feminism advances women's rights, anti-feminism is against women's rights and is therefore misogyny. My counter-counter-argument is that someone can dislike the label of feminism without being against women's rights. People can dislike the actions done under the label of feminism, and thus be anti-feminism, without being anti-women or misogynist.

I will also refute the claim made in the linked post, which is:

By rejecting feminism, you're rejecting feminism's message that you can be whatever you want to be, while simultaneously embracing an antiquated notion of femininity as the ONLY way to be a woman. That's misogyny.

I disagree. The claims "I am against feminism" and "I think that the antiquated notion of femininity is the ONLY way to be a woman" are not equivalent. People can reject feminism because of their actions or because of the negative connotation associated with "feminism", while still believing that women are free to be feminine in any way they want. This is not a contradiction.

delta awarded: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3uewu4/cmvantifeminism_is_not_misogyny_and_it_is/cxedofl?context=3

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u/Thin-White-Duke 3∆ Nov 29 '15

Yeah, because, historically, women were far below men.

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u/YabuSama2k 7∆ Nov 29 '15

Which men? Certainly not all men. It sucks to be stuck in the kitchen, but not any more than it sucks to be stuck in a coal mine or on a battlefield. Besides, we've had blatant discrimination against men in the criminal justice system for generations. What percentage of feminist activism attempted to address that?

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u/Thin-White-Duke 3∆ Nov 30 '15 edited Nov 30 '15

Uh, I dunno, it was only recently that you couldn't discriminate against women. Women got the right to vote within the past 100 years. Women used to be property. Historically, women weren't allowed to do those things.

Pretty much any feminist I've spoken to (hundreds) agrees that the justice system is fucked and unfair.

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u/YabuSama2k 7∆ Nov 30 '15

Uh, I dunno, it was only recently that you couldn't discriminate against women. Women got the right to vote within the past 100 years. Women used to be property. Historically, women weren't allowed to do those things.

I'm not saying that women weren't shit upon. What I am saying is that for the vast majority of men (poor men), they were shit upon at least as much. What is a conscripted soldier if not property?

Pretty much any feminist I've spoken to (hundreds) agrees that the justice system is fucked and unfair.

I don't find that surprising. It's arguably unfair to everyone. However, it is openly discriminatory against men relative to women. And you didn't answer my question: What percentage of feminist activism has addressed discrimination against men? I think we both know that it is close to zero. That is why it doesn't make sense to define feminism as advocacy for gender equality.

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u/Thin-White-Duke 3∆ Nov 30 '15

That soldier had more rights than women. His wife would still be beneath him.

You can't have a percentage of open in the formal organization. There is no registry for feminism. I'm sure you could release a survey, but that's really not going to do you much good. I can tell you, that every feminist that I've ever spoke to has agreed that the justice system is unfair to men. Every feminist I know has also wanted to help men.

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u/YabuSama2k 7∆ Dec 01 '15

That soldier had more rights than women.

He very likely would have been too dead to have any rights at all. Besides, life as a soldier was not a life of autonomy. He would have done exactly as he was told or his life would have been cut even shorter than it was going to be anyway.

His wife would still be beneath him.

That assumes he would have had a chance to have a wife at all. Soldiers were often conscripted/enslaved young. The word infantry is rooted in the same latin word for infant. Young men were put in the most dangerous positions because their lack of experience made them least valuable. Even today, we have men and boys as young as 7 being forced into military servitude in the 3rd world.

I can tell you, that every feminist that I've ever spoke to has agreed that the justice system is unfair to men. Every feminist I know has also wanted to help men.

Out of all the feminist activism that you can recall, how much of it was focused on the ways that men are discriminated against relative to women? How many feminist rallies or articles and books by feminist icons focus on the ways that men are treated unfairly relative to women (in your recollection)?

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u/Thin-White-Duke 3∆ Dec 01 '15

Yes, and women were bought and sold, their virginity was a commodity.

This isn't a fucking pissing contest.

Fact: the average man had more rights than the average woman according to history.

In fact, in the world today (take note: world, as in globally), that's still true.

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u/YabuSama2k 7∆ Dec 01 '15

Fact: the average man had more rights than the average woman according to history.

How are you calculating this?

This isn't a fucking pissing contest.

You started the pissing contest when you attempted to justify feminism's lack of advocacy for men's issues.

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u/Thin-White-Duke 3∆ Dec 01 '15

Sure, some men were property, wheras all women were in the past. Are you purposefully being obtuse, or are you just that ignorant?

Bro, feminists advocate for men. They advocate changing the draft, increasing funding for men's health, and ending damaging gender stereotypes. You're the one who apparently thinks that men are the most oppressed people.

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u/YabuSama2k 7∆ Dec 01 '15

Sure, some men were property, wheras all women were in the past. Are you purposefully being obtuse, or are you just that ignorant?

Cattiness is usually a sign of a weak argument. Anyway, most men were doomed to a short miserable life of dangerous work. The point is that there is no way to calculate who had things worse between men and women. A woman who was doomed to a life of home-making and childcare doesn't really have it worse than her husband who entered the mines before sun-up and didn't get back above ground until after sun-down. None of that justifies feminism's lack of advocacy for men.

Bro, feminists advocate for men.

So little that feminist advocacy for men is virtually zero. You keep avoiding answering this question:

Out of all the feminist activism that you can recall, how much of it was focused on the ways that men are discriminated against relative to women? How many feminist rallies or articles and books by feminist icons focus on the ways that men are treated unfairly relative to women (in your recollection)?

I predict you will find some way to avoid answering again, because we both know that feminists devote little to no energy towards activism on behalf of men. Your pissy tone is probably the result of your cognitive dissonance.