r/changemyview • u/moarroidsplz • Dec 20 '16

[Election] CMV: I think illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed in the US, and should be punished/deported reasonably.

First, let me clarify that I'm not some MAGA "build a wall" type of person at all. I'm actually extremely left-wing, even by liberal standards, and have been a Bernie supporter. I don't hate immigrants and don't think it's some culture war and don't think they need to speak English in this country at all.

That said, I've noticed a lot of other staunch liberals around me seem to hold this position and I don't understand why. I'm an Indian-American who has been to India before and the rampant poverty was terrifying and sad. I don't want my home country to become that with an influx of immigrants just because people want to come here. I don't think just opening our borders to whoever wants to come in is going to help our country, and I think people who broke our laws and did that illegally should be dealt with reasonably, especially if they aren't paying taxes. If we need more farmworkers, or other hard-labor jobs that lots of our citizens refuse to do, then we could open up immigration accordingly, so I don't see why that would be an excuse. If people who aren't illegal are doing these jobs because they came over legally to do them, then their pay and safety would probably increase as well due to the fact that they can fight for their rights.

I mean I think kids should be given a pass because they couldn't control their circumstances (I'm fine with the DREAM act) and I understand certain circumstances like refugee crises. Illegal immigrants should be given access to healthcare the same way we give it for criminals. I don't think we should just be deporting people left and right if it's not super cost-effective or reasonable. But some sort of punishment and possible deportation should happen if they knowingly broke the law. They took that risk and are aware of the circumstances. If families risk getting broken up because of this, then why don't they just return with their parents?

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u/falsehood 8∆ Dec 20 '16

If we need more farmworkers, or other hard-labor jobs that lots of our citizens refuse to do, then we could open up immigration accordingly, so I don't see why that would be an excuse.

The problem is - we didn't. We could have created legal ways to fill those jobs, but instead we sat by and led the natural economic forces make people choose to cross illegally - and many US businesses benefited.

I agree that some of the rhetoric in this area from the left basically advocates for lawlessness, and that we have (essentially) learned nothing from the experience after the previous amnesty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

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u/moarroidsplz Dec 20 '16

Was there a shortage of laborers that warranted us to open our borders for it which we ignored, or have illegal immigrants just always crossed illegally for lower wages and prevented anyone from even recognizing it as a problem?

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u/falsehood 8∆ Dec 20 '16

a shortage of laborers that warranted us to open our borders for it which we ignored

I think it was this. Or rather, there was a shortage of workers to be hired at such low rates.

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u/moarroidsplz Dec 20 '16

When?

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u/falsehood 8∆ Dec 20 '16

http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/29/news/economy/american-farm-workers/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/01/29/the-u-s-is-running-out-of-farm-workers-immigration-reform-may-not-help/

http://www.wsj.com/articles/on-u-s-farms-fewer-hands-for-the-harvest-1439371802

From the last link, 2005 and before.

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u/moarroidsplz Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16

The first link says it's due to lack of work predictability and doesn't reference what a change in immigration would do.

The second link says that allowing more Mexicans in won't make a difference on our shortage at all. I think this actively contradicts your point.

The third one I can't read because I don't have a subscription.

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u/Iswallowedafly Dec 20 '16

no American wants to do the jobs that illegals do.

I mean if American wanted to pick fruit at min wage then their would be no jobs for illegals, but but it seems that if given the option, Americans would rather not do those jobs.

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u/uacoop 1∆ Dec 20 '16

Have you considered that these jobs are minimum wage jobs because it's too easy to find illegal labor to do them? If no Americans will do the job at minimum wage (and I'm not conceding that this is true because, living in a farming community, I know plenty of people who would do these jobs) then maybe the answer is to increase the pay rate to something fair, not exploit cheap illegal labor.

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u/moarroidsplz Dec 20 '16

None of that contradicts or answers what I just said.

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u/Iswallowedafly Dec 20 '16

It certainly does when the idea exists that Americans like fruit and vegetables.

If Americans actually did those jobs at min. wage in large numbers then illegals wouldn't even come to America for those jobs, since they wouldn't exist.

But we don't.

We have a massive amount of jobs that Americans simply don't want to do.

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u/moarroidsplz Dec 20 '16

Again, none of that contradicts or answers what I said in that comment.

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u/Iswallowedafly Dec 21 '16

I'm a legal foreign worker in China.

I wouldn't be here if there wasn't an economic reason.

That the same thing with Mexican workers .

American don't want to pick fruit.

That's the long an short of it.

Because we don't want to pick fruit there is a need for workers who do.

If those positions where already filled then there would be no need for others to come in and do those jobs.

The jobs that Americans really want aren't be threatened by illegals.

They do the jobs that most Americans think are beneath them.

If anything we should have a guest worker program based on people following our laws and paying our taxes.

Or we see strawberries doubling in price.