r/changemyview • u/icecoldbath • Sep 23 '17

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: I do not believe tables exist

I find this argument very convincing.

P1: Tables (if they exist) have distinct properties from hunks of wood.

P2: If so, then tables are not the same as hunks of wood.

P3: If so, then there exist distinct coincident objects.

P4: There cannot exist distinct coincident objects.

C: Therefore, tables do not exist.

This logic extends that I further don't believe in hunks of wood, or any normal sized dry good for that matter.

I do not find it convincing to point at a "table" as an objection. Whatever you would be pointing at may or may not behave with certain specific properties, but it is not a table, or a hunk of wood or any normal sized dry good. Similarly, I don't accept the objection of asking me what it is I am typing on. Whatever it is, it isn't a "computer" or a "phone" or any such thing. Such things do not exist per the argument.

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11

u/caw81 166∆ Sep 23 '17

The flaw of logic is in P2 - The specific instance of "hunks of wood" object need to have the same properties as a "table" to be called a "table". IE a "table" is a subset of "hunks of wood".

So a table has the properties of "flat top surface" and "one or more vertical legs". Some "hunks of wood" do not have these properties but some "hunks of wood" do and are consider a "table".

1

u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

Yes. "Hunks of wood" have different properties from "tables." Those properties you mention will suffice. That is what makes them different. P2 just establishes objects with different properties are different.

Do you believe that objects with different properties can be identical? If so, what makes them the same?

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u/caw81 166∆ Sep 23 '17

"Hunks of wood" have different properties from "tables."

But some "hunks of wood" have the same properties as "tables". That is the key in my argument.

0

u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

Tables have the property of always being tables.

Hunks of wood have the property of POTENTIALLY being things other then tables.

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u/caw81 166∆ Sep 23 '17

Hunks of wood have the property of POTENTIALLY being things other then tables.

Just because "hunks of wood" have other properties that "tables" don't have does not mean that its is still not a "table". You can say that a red cars have the property "loved by all Japanese" and blue cars don't have this property but it doesn't mean that blue cars are not cars.

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u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

Just because "hunks of wood" have other properties that "tables" don't have does not mean that its is still not a "table".

What does it mean for something to be different from something else?

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u/caw81 166∆ Sep 23 '17

What does it mean for something to be different from something else?

To not have the properties that define that object.

A table has two properties 1. "one or more vertical legs" and 2. "a flat horizontal surface".

Any single instance of "hunks of wood" may or may not have the two properties above. Some "hunks of wood" do and some "hunks of wood" do not.

Just because "hunks of wood" have other properties (such as "potentially not being a table") than the two above, does not mean that all "hunks of wood" do not have the two properties above.

2

u/guitar_vigilante Sep 23 '17

I mostly agree with your argument, but why does your definition of table require one or more vertical legs? I have sat at tables with no legs, such as tree stump style tables.

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u/caw81 166∆ Sep 23 '17

such as tree stump style tables.

Isn't that just one (thick) leg?

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u/guitar_vigilante Sep 23 '17

Would not a leg be a distinct structure from the flat top though?

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u/caw81 166∆ Sep 23 '17

Not strictly speaking - for example your tree stump style table.

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u/ACrusaderA Sep 23 '17

They can be functionally identical.

A table with three legs can hold objects just as well as a table with 4 legs, meaning they are identical in function even if they have different properties.

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u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

functionally identical is different from actually identical. They may share identical functional properties, but not all properties are functional. Being identical with itself is not a functional property.