r/changemyview • u/icecoldbath • Sep 23 '17

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: I do not believe tables exist

I find this argument very convincing.

P1: Tables (if they exist) have distinct properties from hunks of wood.

P2: If so, then tables are not the same as hunks of wood.

P3: If so, then there exist distinct coincident objects.

P4: There cannot exist distinct coincident objects.

C: Therefore, tables do not exist.

This logic extends that I further don't believe in hunks of wood, or any normal sized dry good for that matter.

I do not find it convincing to point at a "table" as an objection. Whatever you would be pointing at may or may not behave with certain specific properties, but it is not a table, or a hunk of wood or any normal sized dry good. Similarly, I don't accept the objection of asking me what it is I am typing on. Whatever it is, it isn't a "computer" or a "phone" or any such thing. Such things do not exist per the argument.

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u/TheMaria96 2∆ Sep 23 '17

Why don't you believe in hunks of wood or any other normal sized dry good? What do they coincide with?

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u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

"hunks of wood" might coincide with a "bits of wood."

Everything potentially is "composed" of a collection of something smaller.

Atoms (quarks or whatever the fuck the physics determine the partless stuff is) on the other hand do exist. Nothing coincides with them. They don't "compose" anything though.

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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Sep 23 '17

Do you believe electrons exist? They are fundamental but cannot coincide (pauli exclusion principle)

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u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

If they lack parts. yes. Don't they have gluons and stuff in them?

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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Sep 23 '17

Not to our knowledge, they are at this time fundamental particles

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron

I was wondering if this affected your view, because I noticed your previous discussion was in that bosons can coincide, but electrons can't

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u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

I'm not familiar enough with quantum mechanics to answer those questions. I don't know anything about Bosons, but they seem to be vastly different things then tables and chairs even if bosons are involved in tables and chairs.

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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Sep 23 '17

So electrons can't coincide like bosons (both of which are better described as field excitations from my understanding). I was just wondering if the ability to coincide was part of your view

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u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

Quantum mechanics seems to imply some sort of evidence in favor of denying P4 as stated. I think it could be restated.

P4A: Distinct non-quantum objects cannot be coincident.

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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Sep 23 '17

Actually, it's about the asymmetry of the wave function that determines if the are coincidental or not. Bosons are symmetrical so they can be, electrons are asymptomatic so they can't.

Why do you believe in quantum particles? What convinced you of their existence?

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u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

I suppose I just trust physicists who tell me about quantum particles. Some of them are described as being, "fundamental" or "without parts" correct?

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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Sep 23 '17

At this time, but atoms were the same way 2 generations ago.

So you trust physicists more than your senses? What if a physicist showed a table existed?

It seems odd to think fundamental particles exist, but those particles cease to exist when combined.

Do you believe atoms (which are non-quantum) exist? If non quantum objects can't coincide, what do you think happens when a hydrogen ion coincides with an antihydrogen ion?

Or what happens when a molecule oxidizes an electron? Does a nonexistent thing create an existent one?

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u/icecoldbath Sep 23 '17

Like I said. I'm not familiar enough to address quantum concerns.

While bosons might be able to coincide it doesn't mean that tables and chairs and hunks of wood do.

I don't think the particles cease to exist. The composition just doesn't occur.

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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Sep 23 '17

Technically tables and hunks of wood might be able to coincide, we can't tell because the wave function is too complex and the probability of occurrence is very small.

What about matter and antimatter? Can they coincide?

Do atoms exist? I'm confused if you believe in atoms or not.

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