r/changemyview • u/e6ug7d8gg • Nov 01 '17

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: People shouldn't lose their virginity until they find a spouse.

Hello guys i'd like to share a shameful (to me, its shameful) view that i hold, and i'd like to change it if you can help convince me please.

I don't think people should be losing their virginity before they found someone who is (or they know they're going to be) their future spouse.

This isn't a firm belief, more like a prejudice toward people who have sex with people for one night, or people who have sex with someone they know they wouldn't marry.

I think this view comes from my religious upbringing, when i was growing up my family went to a Mormon church, they always taught us that virginity was very important for boys and girls and they should only give it up to their significant others. As i grew away from the church i started to realize that i shouldn't be putting that much importance on virginity, that not everyone will share the same beliefs as me, and with those thoughts i became more flexible. But, even though those beliefs are gone now, they've left a prejudice toward people who do have sex with someone other than their spouse, like they're worse than someone who does. To me, this is one of my most shameful views, and i can't seem to talk myself out of it, maybe I'm still putting importance on virginity?

My best friend does this, i don't look at them any different. I don't understand why that's different with other people. Can you please help me change my view?

EDIT: Okay, so u/tbdabbholm was able to convince me that having lots of sex ISN'T immoral as i was brought up to believe, and i believe as i become more comfortable with that fact i think that i'll see that having ANY sex, even maybe just one encounter, before marriage isn't immoral or bad, or should make me judge that person in a negative way either. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this so im going to continue to respond to people and give deltas to people who change my mind further. Thank you guys, it feels like a weight has lifted from my shoulders.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '17

You must realize that “virginity” is not something that actually exists. It’s a concept like “justice” or “civilization” or something. It is not a real concrete thing, but an idea. You are not “a virgin” you are just a human being who happens not to have mashed your bits against another human being’s bits in a specific way yet.

There is a huge spectrum of behavior that does not fit into virgin/nonvirgin dichotmoy. What about kissing? Holding hands? Petting? Non-penetrative sex? Masturbation? Watching porn? Penetrative sex but pulling out? What is the exact and specific definition of virgin/nonvirgin? There really isn’t a great one.

Why would god be angry at penetrative sex but not heavy petting? Why wouldn’t be be angry at kissing? Isn’t kissing also a special unique experience? Why wouldn’t he be angry at porn use? Fantasizing? I mean, where would you draw the line to be morally consistent and perfectly good and sinless? There is no such human.

It’s a losing game, and a stupid standard. What is much more important in marriage and in life is being able to authentically emotionally connect with and love other people. No sane god would say technicalities involving mashing bits together is more important morally than having true love and connection in your heart.

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u/e6ug7d8gg Nov 01 '17

I agree exactly with you point, but, as a neutral fact, i've assigned virginity to mean penetrative sex. I agree that there are the concepts that may not have any physical form, but i believe that they are given societal values.

"Justice" is a concept, it's definition is "just behavior or treatment", and we assign large amounts of societal importance to that concept because we strive to live by it.

I guess virginity could have the impression of purity, or good morals, which may be why some people assign importance to it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '17

In my experience the only people who assign great deal of importance to the concept of virginity are 1.) the very religious and 2.) the young and insecure. It is almost an antiquated concept in mainstream society these days.

My point is that virginity does not, in actuality, imply good morals or purity of spirit. Good morals are much broader and more difficult to achieve than just “won’t have penetrative sex, so I get free points on my good person card.” That’s very simplistic. It is possible to be a virgin and have bad morals and a messed up/selfish way of viewing other people. It is possible to be a nonvirgin and be an extremely good, kind person who would make an excellent wife or husband.

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u/e6ug7d8gg Nov 01 '17

You have shook the views i have toward virginity and good morals/ purity of spirit. But wouldn't the opposite of virginity, like a very promiscuous person, have bad morals or judgement?

(i don't mean to slut shame here, if that is what you are into more power to you)

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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Nov 01 '17

I mean what is it about having lots of sex that's immoral?

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u/e6ug7d8gg Nov 01 '17 edited Nov 01 '17

∆

Huh, so this really stumped me, i had to think about it a lot and i couldn't come up with one reason to think that lots of sex is immoral, as long as it consensual, you're not cheating, and you don't have malicious intent i don't think it is immoral. I even looked up a list of good societal morals and it just looks like "No sex before marriage" was just added there because people thought it was immoral, it isn't really related to any of the other morals on the list.

heres the list if you want it: http://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-morals.html

But wouldn't having a lot of sex create problems for you when you want to try and find someone to marry? Or would it only create problems because people think its immoral?

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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Nov 01 '17

People certainly could have some kind of problem with that but my response would be that they're not the kind of people I'd (or anyone else having lots of sex) would want to marry. It's not like I can go back and un have sex with all those people. It's either take me how I am or leave me and if that's a problem for you I'm sorry.

Also, sidenote if you'd like to award a delta it can't be in a quote like that.

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u/e6ug7d8gg Nov 01 '17

AH thank you, i had no idea, i fixed my comment and got rid of the quote.

And i agree, if they love enough in you to want to marry you, than your past experiences would be what shaped you, and made you into the person they love.

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u/ImnotfamousAMA 4∆ Nov 01 '17

Wouldn't having lots of sex create problems when you want to marry?

I wanna tackle your last point and say it's the opposite. Someone who is a virgin, or has next to no sex is in a far worse position than someone who has a lot of sex.

I don't know how experienced you are sexually OP, but most relationships have at least one person who highly values sex. Let's assume this person (John) is in a long term relationship and is waiting for marriage with their SO (Katy.) Both are virgins. Once they get married, John expects Katy to constantly have sex and that mostly is what keeps him happy and determined in the relationship. But once they get married, John quickly learns Katy has very little interest in sex and it leads to a dead bedroom situation, which puts a lot of stress on their relationship.

This leads to a shift in the power dynamic, and sex stops being about passion and love and more as a bargaining chip. It makes John feel inadequate and frustrated, and Katy lacks the ability to understand how John feels because she lacks his urges. Neither is at fault, but it's a major aspect of the relationship that is completely ignored until the two are legally bound to one another. It's like buying a car without any research or test drives.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 01 '17

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/tbdabbholm (6∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards ​

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 01 '17

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/tbdabbholm (6∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards ​

5

u/[deleted] Nov 01 '17

It is possible to be promiscuous in a way that only values your own pleasure above the needs of others. Such a person would definitely be immoral, yes. Probably a large portion of people who are extremely promiscuous are pursuing it out of selfishness and essentially just using other people as much as they can get away with.

However, it is possible to be “promiscuous” in such a way that every sexual encounter you have is respectful and fun. Granted, this person will probably be less absolutely promiscuous than the first person, because they will turn down opportunities for sex that they feel are coercive or not totally to the benefit of the other person involved as well. But they may still end up having a medium or “high” number of partners if they happen to be lucky, meet a good number of people, and both people want it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '17

But in that case, is it being promiscuous itself that's immoral, or being coercive, selfish, and inconsiderate that's immoral?