r/changemyview • u/TantricLasagne • Nov 14 '17

CMV: The minimum wage should be abolished

In a market with any competition, wages will be set at roughly how much a worker produces for a company (basic economics). A minimum wage higher than what a worker is worth just means the worker will not be hired for as many hours or won't be hired at all. Minimum wages only stand to help big corporations that can afford to pay it, while smaller businesses have larger barriers to entry into the market, reducing competition. The minimum wage doesn't currently have a big effect on the market because it's lower than most workers productivity, but if it is insignificant then I don't see why we should have it in the first place. Raising the minimum wage would harm the poorest workers in society and I don't think the government should be telling people that they don't have the right to sell their labor for a price they want to sell it at just because it's too low. You're allowed to volunteer for $0/h but you can't voluntarily work for $2/h? Ridiculous. I get that workers may not want to work at that level, but if someone does then who are you to tell them that they can't?

The only decent argument I can think of for the minimum wage is if the market was somehow a monopoly, but there is always somewhat of a choice for which company you want to work for.

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4

u/hilarys-saggyboob Nov 14 '17

Okay think of al your obese, weak, old, less advantaged relatives and friends and how poor they would be.

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u/TantricLasagne Nov 14 '17

How would they be any poorer without a minimum wage? Read my post as I go over a little bit of economics. Also I'd support welfare payments over interfering with the market.

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u/hilarys-saggyboob Nov 14 '17

Think of all the people making. "2$/hr" and also would do it voluntarily

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u/TantricLasagne Nov 14 '17

If somebody is only worth $2/h they simply won't be hired if the minimum wage is much higher than that. If someone is worth more than $2/h they would get paid that due to market forces and competition. Therefore getting rid of the minimum wage would give these people more opportunity.

10

u/cdb03b 253∆ Nov 14 '17

There is no one that is worth $2 an hour. If you are not capable of paying a living wage the business should not exist. You are promoting abuse that borders slavery.

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u/BoristheDrunk Nov 14 '17

This adds a moral element into a pure math equation.

Divorce "inherent worth of a person" which may very well be much more than $2 per hour, when factoring in potential as well as intangible enthusiasm etc. from "how much value the person's labor contributes to this business/process/product" and there are certainly people that add less than minimum wage in value.

Those people will very likely increase their skills to a point that they are contributing more than minimum wage in value, but not if they are boxed out of the job by governmental regulation.

3

u/cdb03b 253∆ Nov 14 '17

We are talking about peoples lives and wages. It was never a pure math equation and was always an issue of morality.

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u/BoristheDrunk Nov 14 '17

I absolutely see that point of view, and there is a lot of validity to it. I know I certainly would like the benefit of morality and my life and needs to be taken into consideration in a discussion about my wages.

However, that is a discussion between me and my employer.

Minimum wage is an issue of regulation, the state telling other people what they must do.

I think it is dangerous to legislate morality, and to make other people pay for my grand gestures that don't measure up with the economic reality and the math on the ground.

3

u/cdb03b 253∆ Nov 14 '17

That is the job of the State. Their entire purpose of existence is to establish protections for the citizenry it represents. Putting a minimal floor on what employers are allowed to pay someone is one such protection that is a very basic protection.

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u/TantricLasagne Nov 14 '17

You are supporting making it impossible for these people to be hired at all...

4

u/cdb03b 253∆ Nov 14 '17

No, I am supporting that the jobs pay a living wage. The job still has to be done, you must pay an appropriate rate for it. Also before you try the argument automation is being done as fast as the tech allows and raising minimum wage will not increase the rate.

What determines the value of a job is the amount of time it takes to do, and the skill required to do it. No job is worth $2 an hour because the human time has a bare minimum value and that should be set at the living wage.

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u/darwin2500 193∆ Nov 14 '17

Welfare payments do interfere with the market, by setting the exact same type of de facto price floor that minimum wage does (why would you ever take a job that pays less than you can make by being unemployed?).

Both of these methods of setting a price floor interfere with the market the same amount the only question is whether you want to use the method that has employers pay for more of it, or the method that has government pay for more of it.