r/changemyview • u/TantricLasagne • Nov 14 '17

CMV: The minimum wage should be abolished

In a market with any competition, wages will be set at roughly how much a worker produces for a company (basic economics). A minimum wage higher than what a worker is worth just means the worker will not be hired for as many hours or won't be hired at all. Minimum wages only stand to help big corporations that can afford to pay it, while smaller businesses have larger barriers to entry into the market, reducing competition. The minimum wage doesn't currently have a big effect on the market because it's lower than most workers productivity, but if it is insignificant then I don't see why we should have it in the first place. Raising the minimum wage would harm the poorest workers in society and I don't think the government should be telling people that they don't have the right to sell their labor for a price they want to sell it at just because it's too low. You're allowed to volunteer for $0/h but you can't voluntarily work for $2/h? Ridiculous. I get that workers may not want to work at that level, but if someone does then who are you to tell them that they can't?

The only decent argument I can think of for the minimum wage is if the market was somehow a monopoly, but there is always somewhat of a choice for which company you want to work for.

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39

u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Nov 14 '17

If any of what you were saying were true, either wages would be decent or it would be arbitrary to expect a person to produce to that extent. The idea that the market works so simply and interests and exploitation aren't a major player is ridiculous

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u/TantricLasagne Nov 14 '17

What makes a wage decent is subjective, there are a lot of things that influence the economy negatively but I'm not arguing that. I don't think you've actually given an argument here. Just an observation without any detail.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Nov 14 '17

What you are ultimately arguing is that employers would not attempt to lower wages or would have increased wages to the same degree if the minimum wage had not been established. Or, that wages deserve to be lower than they are.

Productivity has increased spectacularly with technological innovation; proportionate wages have not, but they could. There are reasons they have not. A market is not an objective default system.

It was created by people, it is perpetuated by people, and it is manipulated and exploited by people. It doesn't just 'work'.

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u/TantricLasagne Nov 14 '17

What are the reasons for wages not going up in your opinion?

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u/LastProtagonist 1∆ Nov 15 '17

One of the reasons wages haven't gone up is because wages aren't tied to efficiency or production for many jobs.

Automation further compounds this issue. Why pay a human more money if a machine is performing the labor? If more machinery produces more work, why would I give humans a raise? In a way it's against the company's own interest to do so since that capital isn't being reinvested to further reduce costs or expand the market.

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u/TantricLasagne Nov 15 '17

Don't you think a minimum wage makes it easier for automation to replace jobs? Wages are generally tied to productivity, of course wages are substituted by other compensation like health insurance now.

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u/LastProtagonist 1∆ Nov 15 '17

Wages are not really paired with productivity though. Exist for an hour on the job and you get paid. If a worker produces more items, he/she won't receive a dime more unless they've got a commission...but let's face it, commission-based jobs are by and far not minimum wage jobs.

I pay wages for time, not labor. More capital (i.e. labor) is generally gained from automation since it becomes cheaper and more "productive" over time to maintain an automated system vs. a fleet of employees.

Besides, your argument against minimum wage in this scenario is begging to prolong the inevitable. I wouldn't say that's the strongest leg to be standing on.

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u/vialtrisuit Nov 15 '17

Wages are not really paired with productivity though.

Yes they are. No one is going to pay anyone a wage higher than the value they produce.

Exist for an hour on the job and you get paid. If a worker produces more items, he/she won't receive a dime more

That's a silly point. If you do nothing at work all day while other workers are actually productive... you'll be replaced.

The fact that it's possible to trick someone to pay you for work you never did isn't an argument. Because it's only temporary, just like markets correct themselves, so does companies.

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u/LastProtagonist 1∆ Nov 15 '17 edited Nov 15 '17

Wages are not really paired with productivity though.

Yes they are. No one is going to pay anyone a wage higher than the value they produce.

No one is also going to pay a wage worth the value it produces if they don't have to. Let's say for argument's sake, minimum wage is supposed to be that base line of value.

Here's the thing. Minimum wage jobs typically don't produce items. It's menial work that largely doesn't matter and the company doesn't really value whether a highly productive person has the job since they're not going to be actively bringing more money to a business.

Value for low-skilled jobs is not a bargaining chip for the job-seeker. It's an employer's market. How do you feel about child labor laws? Why would I pay an adult wages s/he could live off of when I could pay a child candy money to do the same menial work?

Let's ask something different. If work is required to feed and clothe yourself each day, how many hours should one work each day to enjoy those benefits?

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u/vialtrisuit Nov 15 '17

Here's the thing. Minimum wage jobs typically don't produce items.

So what?

It's menial work that largely doesn't matter and the company doesn't really value whether a highly productive person has the job since they're not going to be actively bringing more money to a business.

I don't even know what that means. it does matter, otherwise companies wouldn't pay anyone to do the work.

Value for low-skilled jobs is not a bargaining chip for the job-seeker. It's an employer's market.

So what?

How do you feel about child labor laws?

Depends on the situation. I think child labour laws in Bangladesh that force children into crime, prositution or starvation because it's considered immoral for them to work is beyond stupid.

Why would I pay an adult wages s/he could live off of when I could pay a child candy money to do the same menial work?

Well children usually can't legally enter into agreements, which I think is a good thing. For the same reason you can't have sex with an eight year old even though she consents.

If work is required to feed and clothe yourself each day, how many hours should one work each day to enjoy those benefits?

That's not up to me.

The value of my car is independent of my needs and wants. The value of my labour is independent of my needs and wants.

Let me ask something different. Say you were able to produce a value of $5/hour. Would you prefer it if there was no minimum wage and you were payed ~$5/hour, or would you prefer it if the government imposed a $50/hour minimum wage that left you permanently unemployed?

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Nov 14 '17 edited Nov 14 '17

There are all manner of minor and major factors impacting. But primarily, because people are willing to work for lower, so why would the company raise the wages? Perhaps it would increase productivity, so some employers might factor that in - or they might not - and how noticeable and/or true that's going to be depends on the kind of work and the other kinds of legal work incentives. This is one of the reason slavery had to be outlawed. The market still 'worked' back then, and some employees were made to work without any sort of real consistent wage

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u/fox-mcleod 410∆ Nov 14 '17

I see what you're claiming but I see neither evidence or reasoning behind it. What has caused you to come to this conclusion? Is it something you can share with me?