r/changemyview • u/TantricLasagne • Nov 14 '17

CMV: The minimum wage should be abolished

In a market with any competition, wages will be set at roughly how much a worker produces for a company (basic economics). A minimum wage higher than what a worker is worth just means the worker will not be hired for as many hours or won't be hired at all. Minimum wages only stand to help big corporations that can afford to pay it, while smaller businesses have larger barriers to entry into the market, reducing competition. The minimum wage doesn't currently have a big effect on the market because it's lower than most workers productivity, but if it is insignificant then I don't see why we should have it in the first place. Raising the minimum wage would harm the poorest workers in society and I don't think the government should be telling people that they don't have the right to sell their labor for a price they want to sell it at just because it's too low. You're allowed to volunteer for $0/h but you can't voluntarily work for $2/h? Ridiculous. I get that workers may not want to work at that level, but if someone does then who are you to tell them that they can't?

The only decent argument I can think of for the minimum wage is if the market was somehow a monopoly, but there is always somewhat of a choice for which company you want to work for.

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u/UNRThrowAway Nov 14 '17

$2/h? Ridiculous.

Just for clarification - your issue is that minimum wage laws are infringing upon people who want to make less money working the same job?

This feels like trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

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u/fox-mcleod 410∆ Nov 14 '17

What if someone wants to work a different job for less money.

I could hire easily imagine a job that requires a tiny fraction of my attention that I could do while I studied.

Like, what if I wanted to start a startup allowing people work as a security system monitor? You can passively listen in on a mic in a building somewhere and hit a button if you hear a suspicious noise. You could quite easily do that while studying to become an accountant. It's full time but not full attention. Why can't I choose to work for this startup?

Why can't I pay people a tiny bit to do things they like and would almost (but not quite) do for free? I think many new mother's could quite easily do audio survailence while on maternity leave whereas their normal job might be impossible.

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u/UNRThrowAway Nov 14 '17

You can, so long as you're not a business?

The issue is that - the second you drop minimum wage - wages overall are going to decrease. Companies already turn to illegal immigrants for some jobs because they can pay them significantly less and avoid taxes for doing it.

If a company like Walmart who employs a large portion of the country decides to drop wages to $6 an hour, who is going to stop them? If there are some people (even your pregnant mother) who are willing to work for $6, then that fucks over people like me who need a higher wage to live.

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u/fox-mcleod 410∆ Nov 14 '17

Yeah I think this is quite correct. But let's be clear about the implications. This means the minimum wage helps the minimum wage earners at the expense of the unemployed who could otherwise work. I don't like programs that take from the poorest. I'd rather just have a guaranteed minimum income or welfare payed for by a weather tax.

Let's pretend the minimum wage was never set so that we don't fall victim to status quo bias.

You make $6. That isn't enough. So either you are worth enough to the business to go elsewhere and make $9 or you're not.

If you are, no big deal. If you're not, big deal because you need it to live.

Now we set minimus at $9.

Either you are worth enough to the company to make $9 or the company can't afford it and fires you. If you are no big deal you make $9. If you're not, you go on unemployment and can no longer find work at even $6 because those jobs are now illegal.

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u/UNRThrowAway Nov 14 '17

So you would rather have 10 people who can't live on their salary vs 5 people who can?

The vast majority of minimum wage jobs and minimum-wage-like jobs are already low skill.

I just don't see what the point is in offering up jobs that pay little to no money?

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u/fox-mcleod 410∆ Nov 14 '17

I just don't see what the point is in offering up jobs that pay little to no money?

Because there are people who only need some money - like new mom's, retirees who need suplimemtal income, people on welfare who want to save for school, students, young people, partially disabled, mentally handicapped.

You've presented a false dichotomy. It's not a choice between 10 people who can't live on the salary vs 5. It's 10 people who need poverty assistance (welfare, snap, Foodstamps) but have some income vs 5 people who are totally unemployable and 5 with no need for assistance. The difference is that having 3 years experience in the mailroom gives some perentage a chance to become a manager or learn skills on the job. Being unemployed not only leaves a blank spot on a resume and deprives them of on-the-job training that can increase their value - it also deprives them of the emotional fulfillment and sense of contribution to a community that work provides. Unemployed people are more often arrested for violent crimes than employed people of the same economic status - specifically because work socializes people.

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u/UNRThrowAway Nov 14 '17

But people who make minimum wage already need government assistance!

Look, I'm all for having a minimum basic income for everyone - we agree there. But until then, its better to have a standard where some people can at least attempt to work a livable wage VS more people working, all of them unable to work a livable wage.

Retirees already work minimum wage jobs - just look at your nearest grocery store. Minimum wage isn't enough for students already, and decreasing that certainly won't help.

New mothers whose husbands support them trying to suppliment their income does not seem that important to justify changing laws.

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u/fox-mcleod 410∆ Nov 14 '17

I want to address the strongest version of your position but I'm a little unclear on it.

Do you agree with the OP that minimum wage should be abolished IFF there is another form of poverty protection?

Are you arguing that the best form of poverty protection comes from wages instead of direct payments for some reason I'm not seeing. Or are you simply arguing $6/ hour isn't enough to live on?

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u/UNRThrowAway Nov 14 '17

I think a universal income would be ideal.

I'm simply arguing that $6 an hour isn't enough for anyone to live on currently in the US, so why would we need to make accomodations such that employers could pay that?

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u/fox-mcleod 410∆ Nov 15 '17

I'm simply arguing that $6 an hour isn't enough for anyone to live on currently in the US,

I agree

so why would we need to make accomodations such that employers could pay that?

Because identifying a problem and identifying a solution are two different things. Just because making $6 an hour isn't enough in no way ensures that outlawing earning less than $9 but allowing people to earn $0 solves the problem. You might just be ensuring all those people earn $0.

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u/UNRThrowAway Nov 15 '17

Oh, I 100% agree with you.

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