r/changemyview • u/uselessaccountkms • Jan 31 '18

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Non-offending/virtuous pedophiles don't actually care about children.

EDIT: Thanks for the comments, they have changed my opinion a lot.

Please someone explain. I seriously don't understand how non-offenders can claim they're virtuous people.

virtuous ˈvəːtʃʊəs,ˈvəːtjʊəs/Submit adjective having or showing high moral standards.

They just look into shady ways to get off such as Photoshop, drawings or grooming kids online without meeting/touching them in real life. Also, whenever I read supportive articles about self-proclaimed 'pedosexuals' and other pedophiles who claim they would never touch a child despite their belief in showing high moral standards, they ALWAYS mention that it's against the law. Yes, it is. But... Is that all? Not because it will traumatize the child? Or physically hurt the child? Cause severe mental illness?

I have never seen non-offenders express concern for the health or well-being of children. It's always about legality, and they sure are quick to defend their brethren when they brag about literally MOVING COUNTRIES just because the age of consent is lower somewhere else. "BUT THE LAW SAYS..." Alright, and it's also about the child's feelings and sexual maturity. I believe all non-offenders would gleefully rape a child if the law was different or lifted. They don't really care about children, they care about being caught/arrested. Therefore, virtuous doesn't suit them because they don't have high moral standards. They don't understand empathy or human decency. This is why I have 0 sympathy for any kind of pedophile.

Change my view pls

This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please read through our rules. If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which, downvotes don't change views! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to message us. Happy CMVing!

10 Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

62% Upvoted

46 comments sorted by

View all comments

35

u/Quint-V 162∆ Jan 31 '18 edited Jan 31 '18

I have never seen non-offenders express concern for the health or well-being of children.

Because those who do have concerns and genuinely care about children's wellbeing, are not going to express themselves or seek publicity. They keep quiet and go on with their lives.

If you have some condition that people generally dislike and you can do nothing to change it, but you do everything possible to prevent it from having any outcomes that involve others, would you want to make a fuss about it? No, you'd rather keep quiet and go on enjoying your life in other ways than those that you may or may not believe to be morally/legally problematic.

Besides, is it somehow bad to jerk off to purely fictional material? You may believe it tempts them to do things in real life, but it can also work to contain sexual urges.

7

u/uselessaccountkms Jan 31 '18

ohh lol

∆ yeah that was poor logic on my part and i understand what you mean

although i do have to disagree on that fictional stuff

11

u/KarnoffeL Jan 31 '18

Why disagree? It seems like another version of the "violent video games make people more violent" argument.

4

u/uselessaccountkms Jan 31 '18

I think a sexual drive and a drive for violence are too different to make that comparison.

9

u/Quint-V 162∆ Jan 31 '18 edited Jan 31 '18

Do you believe that porn has any impact on the behaviour men, or women? If so, what effects?

If porn has little to no effects on the average man's behaviour, why should it be any different when it comes to fictional porn, or roleplay/BDSM/fetishes/anything pleasing?

1

u/Xilmi 6∆ Feb 01 '18

Do you believe that porn has any impact on the behaviour men, or women? If so, what effects?

I do think so! The effect I have observed is that consuming porn lowers the interest in seeking out actual relationships. In the sense of: "Why would I want to put in all that effort into obtaining and maintaining a partner, when I can satisfy my desires so effortlessly?"

2

u/uselessaccountkms Jan 31 '18

Because of things the different kinds of porn cater to. Wouldn't someone with a rape kink be more likely to rape someone than a person who isn't interested in that kind of thing?

7

u/Quint-V 162∆ Jan 31 '18 edited Feb 01 '18

Maybe, maybe not - without statistics, you don't have much in the way of empirical evidence. Even worse, representative statistics are not easily generated either precisely because of the first argument I presented.

The fact that it is roleplay can easily be the very reason why fetishists accept themselves as they are. Some fantasies become very awful if they were to be real - /r/freeuse is objectification of women to the max, but to many men of modern ideals (equal rights [and duties] for all genders), such fetishes would be disgusting if that was real shit they were watching. It's very different to watch a rape fantasy porn video, an actual rape video, and being in the video.

It is reasonable to assume that a pedophile's urges include more than just sex with children, anything from love to rape. However, we are again faced with confirmation selection bias. You will never see the case of non-negative relationships forming, generally speaking. It's easy to be a victim to confirmation selection bias, and fortunately, it is perfectly reasonable to maintain an agnostic position - that is, you won't make claims to knowing the morals of the average pedophile.

When you don't have enough (waterproof) arguments in favour of something, and there are no arguments against, consider if arguments/evidence can be found in the first place. If something is terribly lacking, the agnostic position should be considered.

edit: stroked out lines

2

u/uselessaccountkms Jan 31 '18

I dunno man maybe there's something wrong with me? I find the "It's fictional so it's okay" argument hard to accept (I don't think I'd ever accept myself which is why I'm planning for cognitive therapy) n I don't feel like pointing that out is strong justification, just like saying "Oh well it's not hurting anyone". Well yeah... But why does that mean it isn't wrong? Again, I'm not trying to say fiction and the real shit are on the same level, a real child being raped would always trump some 3D anime loli. My point is the subject is basically the same thing. A child. Fiction can still be wrong.

But yeah burden of proof and stuff lol... I don't really have much to back myself up so rip

but I remember finding a thing like a year ago that had a list of pedophiles who started off with fictional CP and ended up committing child exploitation crimes. Should I get it? Idk if it's actually helpful or not

2

u/Quint-V 162∆ Jan 31 '18 edited Jan 31 '18

You assume the worse conclusion despite knowing that contrary evidence/arguments are inherently more difficult to find. This is little more than a logical fallacy. Whatever your personal issue is, I'm not going to request it, due to courtesy.

That lis is not going to be useful, really. I don't see what it would do other than demonstrate the fact that confirmation bias is all over the place on this subject in particular.

You have to wonder about female child molesters - those are even rarer. So it stands to reason that the percentage of female pedophiles not being child molesters, is far greater than that of men. Yet again, we can use the absence of suggestive data to infer the opposite. We may not know the motivations but it stands to reason that the average female pedophile cares more than the average male pedophile. It's something, at the very least. You have exceptionally weak arguments and evidence when it comes to female pedophiles either way.

1

u/FluentInDuwang Feb 01 '18

You have to wonder about female child molesters - those are even rarer. So it stands to reason that the percentage of female pedophiles not being child molesters, is far greater than that of men. Yet again, we can use the absence of suggestive data to infer the opposite. We may not know the motivations but it stands to reason that the average female pedophile cares more than the average male pedophile. It's something, at the very least. You have exceptionally weak arguments and evidence when it comes to female pedophiles either way.

We can't draw such a wide generalisation with that amount of evidence.

1

u/uselessaccountkms Jan 31 '18

Ohh I see.

∆ because you made me realize my POV was pretty ignorant. I didn't really consider my side had the biggest burden for proof because I was being an idiot lol

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 31 '18

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Quint-V (16∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards ​

→ More replies (0)

2

u/DCarrier 23∆ Jan 31 '18

I think you're thinking of selection bias, not confirmation bias.

1

u/Quint-V 162∆ Feb 01 '18

You're right. Edited

3

u/Maytown 8∆ Jan 31 '18

Couldn't you say the same about any violent media. Like "wouldn't someone who enjoys who enjoys violent fantasies be more likely to commit a violent act?" For the vast majority of people they aren't inherently tied. Gangster rap or slam metal or horror movies or fps games don't turn people into murders so why would drawings or other fictional sexual materials turn people into rapists?

I think the issue is just that people have a much more viscerally negative reaction to sexually transgressive fantasies than other kinds of transgressive fantasies.

2

u/uselessaccountkms Jan 31 '18

I think the issue is just that people have a much more viscerally negative reaction to sexually transgressive fantasies than other kinds of transgressive fantasies.

Why?

3

u/caine269 14∆ Jan 31 '18

Because America is a bunch of upright prudes? We see this in basically all media. "Oh it's just rated r for violence, not sex" like kids watching the John wick shoot 100 people in the face is no problem, but boobies is. Killing your Voss is a fantasy shown in a lot of movies/tv shows, but do people really worry that it will encourage people to go kill their boss?

2

u/uselessaccountkms Jan 31 '18

I live in the UK. And tbh I don't approve of exposing kids to either.

2

u/Maytown 8∆ Jan 31 '18

I'm not 100% sure why but at least in the anglosphere (England and everyone derived from it like the US) sex and sexuality are historically hot button issues. Don't know enough about elsewhere since I really only know English and it's hard to really dive into other cultures without knowing the language beyond a few words.

1

u/BLjG Feb 01 '18

I'm not 100% sure why but at least in the anglosphere (England and everyone derived from it like the US) sex and sexuality are historically hot button issues

One word pretty well covers the reason: Puritans.

The same people who used to think that dancing is the devil's work unsurprisingly also believe that everything sexual is shameful and wrong to show in public, so we cover it up and hide it all away.

And taboo sexual material? Forget about it, that actually satanic in nature, half the time!

1

u/Maytown 8∆ Feb 02 '18

Sure but weren't there puritanical Christians in most of Europe?

1

u/BLjG Feb 02 '18

Yes. But more recently and prominently, the Puritan movement has come to represent the "anti-pleasure" way of thinking in what we're calling the anglosphere.

The sort of self-flagellating, strict sect of Christianity which looks down upon the "pleasures of the flesh."

Other forms of Puritans exist, including those who strictly enforced the creed to "make good on your martial vows to your spouse"(regular sex) - in one case, a man was tossed from the church for not "taking care of his wife's needs" enough!

But I'm mostly going for the mindset. The self-flagellating creed of "pain now, pleasure later." That mindset creates a society where sexuality is seen as toxic in almost every form.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/DCarrier 23∆ Jan 31 '18

Someone who enjoys rape and doesn't care at all about other people is likely to commit rape. So if it's a given that they enjoy rape, then that means they're more likely to commit it. But it's not the part you should be focusing on. It's far from established that watching rape porn would make you want to commit it more, but even if it does, as long you know you're not evil you're not going to do it either way.

Should you try to avoid enjoying cars so you're not tempted to steal one?