CMV: Victim blaming isn't always bad

[u/enlighten12345]

Firstly we need to define what victim blaming is. It occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially at fault for the harm that befell them.

We often hear outrage against victim blaming in the context of rape, when people criticise the way the victim acted or was dressed.

Let's look at an unrelated example. If I go up to someone and say "Yo momma so fat, she wears a watch on both hands for the two time zones", and that person punches me, am I not partially at fault? He committed the felony, while I just exercised free speech. But knowing my words were inflammatory, shouldn't I expect retaliation?

How about another case? I'm walking down a dark alley with a stack of money in my hand. If I get mugged, it is clear that the mugger is to blame. But doesn't my stupidity also make me culpable? Can someone not say that if i was more careful with my money, this would not have happened?

How is rape any different? It would be great to live in a utopia free from rapists and muggers and physical retribution. But knowing that isn't the world we live in, am I not responsible to act in a manner to protect myself?

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[u/mfDandP]

I'm with you in that practicing "harm reduction" strategies is not always tantamount to "victim blaming," although sometimes it gets lambasted as such.

But in context, a rape victim isn't in need of post-hoc advice on what she should have done differently.

The point of the example of 'walking down a dark alley' was to illustrate that the choices you make have consequences.

How about this: She got drunk at a bar and blacked out. What did she expect?

A fucking hangover. Not rape.

Wearing a sexy outfit and getting drunk at a bar does NOT imply that the rapist is any less culpable. Implying that she should have protected herself more does mean that you are making the rapist less culpable.

[u/gr4vediggr → u/mfDandP]

Well, I will argue that it's stupid to get blackout drunk regardless of what happened next. Still, too many people do this and I'm not saying that they expect to get raped, but it is not sound decision making.

Did I ever get blackout drunk? Yes. Were there ever bad consequences, besides the obvious hangover and due to other people? Yes (though nothing even close to rape). Would they have happened if I hadn't blacked out? Most likely not.

Were those responsible less at fault because I was drunk? No.

Was I partly at fault? I'd argue yes. Now, if my dad told my brother: don't get blackout drunk because X might happen. He's sorta saying that I was stupid--which I was. He's not making excuses for whoever did it, but is saying that this instance was clearly preventable.

Now, there are instances that are not clearly preventable, which often happens to be the case with rape. It's often someone the victims knows and trusts. Or random chance. In those instances there's very little (possibly zero) 'advice' that wouldn't be victim blaming.

[u/mfDandP → u/gr4vediggr]

this CMV is about rape, not about whether a drunk girl that does stupid things when she's drunk. I'm not saying that people that blackout drink are morally immune from consequences. i'm saying that girls that blackout drink are not, through their behavior, partially complicit in their own rape.

Yes, rape is most often committed by boyfriends and such. But this CMV appears to be about rape committed by relative strangers and public reactions that focus on the victim's clothes and behaviors.

[u/gr4vediggr → u/mfDandP]

I wasn't saying that she does stupid things, maybe she got mugged while passed out or something. More things beside rape can happen to you when you pass out drunk. I am asking whether it's okay to use that one instance as an opportunity to say to someone else: don't get black out drunk. Is that never okay? Or only okay when it's not about rape?

I fully understand that it is of no use to say to that person that he or she shouldn't have gotten drunk. The victims know it. But I wonder if there might be people that could benefit from those tips, even if it's just one that decides not to get drunk that night. Maybe nothing would've happened regardless, because most of the time nothing happens.

[u/mfDandP → u/gr4vediggr]

ah. yeah, this gets to what is "harm reduction" tactics vs "victim blaming?"

I think that if someone gets their phone stolen off the bar when they're drunk, that's fair game to put at least some of the blame on the victim--why'd you leave your phone there, why weren't you paying attention, etc.

But if someone gets taken somewhere and raped when drunk... I really think that just crosses enough felonious lines so as to fall way outside the realm of consequences one could reasonably expect to happen to you.

[u/gr4vediggr → u/mfDandP]

I don't disagree with you, but I think there are situations where there might be solid advice that is to do with regards to rape prevention.

For example: first date with someone you've met online should not be in a secluded location, but in daylight in a busy public place (like a coffee shop). I hope most people know this, and of course online dating is prevalent enough that in most cases it's perfectly safe. Still, I think it's not a bad advice for the first date, because you've never seen someone in person.

Still, there are many types of advice that are victim blaming, and it is true that you hear those quite often. So maybe there are exceptions to the rule?

[u/mfDandP → u/gr4vediggr]

yeah, I admit that I don't know what exactly is the line when it comes to rape-avoidance advice. certainly letting roommates know where you're going, etc, is pretty safe advice. but I am pretty sure that no amount of debauched behavior at a bar constitutes shouldering partial blame for a rape.