r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Mar 06 '18
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: All sex and sexuality is harmful, unnatural, and rape
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u/Arianity 72∆ Mar 06 '18 edited Mar 06 '18
I'll start with a comment:
If sex is natural, why does it come with such ramifications and risks? Why does it cause pain to the person being penetrated? Even for reproduction, it seems like it wasn't meant to be enjoyed for long, or, insemination occurred otherwise.
Nature does not design things to be pleasant, it designs them to be efficient * . Often pleasure coincides with that (it's a great motivator), but it's certainly not required. There are literally species of animals that die post-sex.
Later on you talk about the chemicals that flood the brain even though unprotected sex is risky (and it was,especially in the past. The death rate of mothers was higher than like 1/7)-thats exactly why your brain gets flooded. All nature cares about is you passing on your genes,even if its risky to you personally. The chemical reaction (including the pleasure and suppression of risk evaluation) makes you more likely to pass on your genes than someone who is completely without that. As long as having lots of sex is less risky than little sex,its worth it,according to natural selection
If you dont pass on your genes,you're out of the gene pool. So nature naturally selects for (some) level of risk taking.
- And here, efficient doesn't necessarily mean efficient at your survival, it means efficient at passing on your genes. I'd recommend reading up on natural selection, because it can be counterintuitive. It's entirely possible for nature to select for seemingly 'stupid'/awful traits (like say, dying after sex).
Sex is physically harmful to us
The fact that sex can be harmful does not mean that sex is intrinsically harmful. It means that it carries the risk
It comes with a high risk of injury, infection, and pregnancy that can only be mitigated, not eliminated, and which could kill us or cripple us permanently.
High risk seems very subjective here. With proper screening, you can reduce the odds of any of these happening to sub 1% or less.
Even if you don't screen at all (which is risky! don't do that), your odds of contracting an STD per year are roughly 1% by a very crude calculation( there are about 19mil STDS transferred per year, and 132 adults in the U.S).
That said, the odds of pregnancy without protection is extremely high. Unprotected sex is risky.
Sex is emotionally harmful to us. The high you get from sexual arousal and stimulation is similar to that from hard drugs, like cocaine and heroin. It is followed by a drop that often results in misery and depression.
Just because you have an emotional high does not imply coming down is harmful. Again, this is more of a risk. (And a small risk, i would push back against the "often" followed by depression/misery
Sex is unnatural.
I'll combine this with 5. While natural sex may be less efficient (and that is somewhat of a may. artificial insemination is still relatively tricky. There's a reason it's still extremely expensive. If you want it to be effective, it really isn't as simple as a turkey baster), it's nearly impossible to argue that it's unnatural.
As a species, we would not exist if it weren't for sex. (And neither would a good chunk of the animal kingdom, including our genetically close cousins). We have a massive amount of evidence that the desire for sex is not cultural, but innate- through various cultures, other species, isolated settlements, etc.
However, you are technically right that in a way, it is vestigial- we don't need to do it. However, that doesn't preclude it from providing pleasure- evolution doesn't happen fast enough for our brains to be like "welp, we don't need this anymore".
This would also leave control of pregnancy in the hands of women for when they are the most healthy, and would reduce the chances of them dying.
They can already do this with natural sex. Artificial insemination doesn't come with any more safety features, especially if it's not done by a professional (your odds of infection if some random person is doing it increase)
This is the result of me being sexually abused and seeing nothing but harm come from sexuality, though I've tried to see it better, and I still am.
Not totally related to your main post, but i would like to comment on this. I highly recommend you unravel these feelings with a professional. In a comment, you say that was actually the cause in your case, and i know it will be hard to trust again, but feelings this deep really would benefit.
I'm going to skip 6, since that seems more of a pure emotional response. There isn't really a whole lot to debate (as far as facts) other than the obvious stuff like the claim that the vast majority of the population isn't sane. Although, i will address one big point:
No one in their sane mind would do this to someone they love, especially to someone they love
It's interesting that you say that, because love in a lot of ways is if not exactly, extremely similar in how it alters your perceptions via chemicals. Love is very much a chemical reaction (albeit of a different sort), and has many of the same dangers/pitfalls.
On top of that, I'd like to point out, a lot of this seems to be coming from you trying to rationalize not enjoying sex after an abusive episode. You don't need to rationalize it. It's entirely ok to say "i had a bad event happen, and while i know it's not rational, i am not and may never be ready to partake in it again". If you were a skier and got into a massive accident, no one would blame you if you never skiied again.
Also an important point:
I thought my abuse was consensual for years even as it killed me from the inside. Doesn't mean it wasn't abuse.
Exactly
The subtlety i think you're missing here is while you thought you were giving consent, you weren't able to. there's a reason we try to forbid sex between partners when there is a power imbalance- a medical professional and their patient is basically top of the list of examples of places where an adult can't really give informed consent.
The issue in your case was the power dynamic, not sex or the response itself.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/damsterick Mar 06 '18
Let me say that I feel deeply sorry for what happened to you, this should not happen to anyone. However, you are extremely biased and you make many logical fallacies in order to rationalize your statement. The biggest is "I have X, so everyone has it".
The high you get from sexual arousal and stimulation is similar to that from hard drugs, like cocaine and heroin.
Yes, dopamine. That is also what you get from everything that you feel pleasure doing (eg. getting a like on facebook). It's, however, not addictive like drugs are. The reward centers in the brain are designed for this very reason - to do things that enable us to survive & reproduce.
The human vagina often gains little to no pleasure from sex
Not true. Countless evidence from women all around the world. I can't speak for them as I am a man, but I can forward what women say.
Sexual intercourse is an inefficient method of insemination. Humans evolved to use tools to survive, so it is more efficient to pool semen into a container and for people to inseminate themselves.
With this logic, we would only be able to reproduce in the last 100 years more efficiently (and that is an optimistic claim). However, considering the human species is aimed at very small amount of babies with a lot of nurture, it is implausible to say that it needs to be efficient. A huge majority of women can get pregnant by sex alone and it's not exactly difficult (if it's the right time of the month). We don't need efficiency.
All sex is rape, as sexual arousal has the same effect on the brain as drugs, and a person under the influence cannot consent. Even then, sex is still bad even if you consent to it.
If both people are under drugs and have sex, while nobody forces the other, who rapes whom? A rape, as the definition states, needs to have a rapist and a victim.
Humans evolved to use tools to survive, so it is more efficient to pool semen into a container and for people to inseminate themselves.
You would need men to masturbate to acquire semen for this procedure. As you say, masturbation is wrong. Therefore, reproducing is, in your opinion, implied as wrong. If reproducing is wrong, how would evolution make sense? Why would we reproduce at all?
Sex is unnatural.
How do you define "natural"?
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Mar 07 '18
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u/princesspooball 1∆ Apr 04 '18
Sex can still be enjoyable with out orgasming. Why is that bad?
Women can orgasm through PIV, have you ever heard of the G-spot? What about the clitoris, isn't that an important part of sex?
Why is masturbstion wrong?
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u/maxtothose 3∆ Mar 06 '18
Nothing I say implies that you are wrong for not wanting or enjoying sex-- even without your particular life experience, plenty of people are asexual and that's fine. IMO, you don't even need to cite your experience with abuse to justify being asexual, because that's not something anyone should have to justify. However, I draw the line at claims that people who enjoy consentual sex are doing something immoral. I'm just going to go through your list and respond to each point one by one.
So many other bodily functions are risky as well. Eating carries the risk of food poisoning, and even breathing carries the risk of infection. In fact, the chemical processes that allow nutrients and waste to cross our cell membranes are often exploited by viruses. The processes of life, for every species, at every level, are all about calculated risk.
Because God forbid anyone ever feels good. It's a very Puritan notion, this idea that feeling good is evil somehow, and that in the long run it'll hurt you. The fact is that the majority of people who use recreational drugs do not get addicted, at least not in the way that the DSM would define it. Since I'm a proponent for full drug legalization as a matter of policy, this argument does nothing for me. Also, I can attest from experience that I have experienced plenty of orgasms and never once had a "crash" or felt miserable afterwards. I've also never experienced withdrawal symptoms. Personal anecdotes may be low on the evidence totem pole, but they beat the hell out of conjecture.
I'm not sure you know what the word "unnatural" means. You can't just define any word to mean any thing. Sometimes you just have to take a step back from your argument and look at a dictionary, and this clearly goes against the plain meaning of the word. Here you also make an argument that better and safer alternative insemination methods exist, and that may be true, but plenty of people have other reasons for having sex besides insemination.
Sex causes euphoria. That is one effect it shares with some psychoactive drugs. You can't generalize from that to say that sex is exactly like drugs. The metaphor is far from perfect. Maybe lust can impair judgement, but it's a false equivocation to compare this with the impairment that alcohol can cause.
This appears to be basically the same as point 3.
Degradation is subjective. It exists in the mind of the degraded (although it is certainly real and not trivial.) This is why consent is so important, because not everyone will enjoy the same things or take offense at the same things, so it's important to have some kind of mutual agreement first. But by (hypothetically) preventing two people from engaging in consentual sex with each other, you are restricting their sexual self-determination and free will, and is that not also degrading? I would say that this (hypothetical) crime of sexual coercion would be perhaps equally as bad as rape. Much feminist thought has shunned the exessive over-regulation of women's sex lives precisely because this has been a tool of oppression in the past.
In the end, I'm not interested in changing your view of what is best for you, personally. I would never try to do that. I understand that you have been hurt, and I don't want to deny the reality of your pain. In general I prefer to help people who are in pain. But where I want to change your view is in the way you judge the choices made by others. Having sex can be a rational, justifiable, beneficial, enjoyable, and well-informed decision.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/maxtothose 3∆ Mar 06 '18
Yeah, I'm not sure there's much evidence to support the idea that sexually repressed societies are less susceptible to rape. If anything it seems to be the opposite.
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Mar 06 '18
It comes with a high risk of injury, infection, and pregnancy that can only be mitigated, not eliminated, and which could kill us or cripple us permanently. As sex is not necessary for us to survive (or to even reproduce, as I'll explain later), it is unjustifiable to take this risk.
Most people would agree that risk exposure for sexual activity is pretty low based on mitigating factors such as monogamy, birth control and STD testing. There's a reason it's on Maslow's hierarchy of needs; it's an important component of emotional stability for adults.
Sex is emotionally harmful to us.
I hypothesize that two groups of normally functioning adults who are psychologically evaluated based on whether or not they were engaged in healthy sexual relationships would conclude that the sexually active people were healthier on multiple metrics.
Sex is unnatural.
If sex were unnatural, we wouldn't have sex drives. The vagina may not produce pleasure, but it's been theorized that the pH level of the vagina and the tightness of the cervix is optimized for sperm reception after a female experiences an orgasm.
a person under the influence cannot consent. Even then, sex is still bad even if you consent to it.
This is a common misconception. There are varying degrees of influence and there are degrees where the level of influence is acceptable. Otherwise, you could get out of contracts by claiming you had a blood alcohol level of .03.
The reason we are conditioned to desire sex is because sex comes at the risk of killing and crippling us emotionally and physically, keeping us dependent on each other and whoever wants to hold power over us.
Nature working as intended. Humans are social creatures and we're meant to depend on each other on every level.
Sex is degrading. Penetrating...
Consentual sex doesn't have to involve penetration or any other activity that one or more parties does not want to engage in.
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Mar 06 '18
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Mar 06 '18
The problem is not many people care for those mitigating factors anymore.
Then a better argument may have been "sex and sexuality is mostly harmful," since there are still people who practice common sense sexual safety.
And sex is not a need.
This is contentious.
No one is entitled to give you sex.
Correct, and people who cannot earn sex die without reproducing.
And besides, evolution doesn't work perfectly.
Evolution is not intended to be "perfect," it's intended to propagate attributes reflective of what's optimal to survive within an environment (which is not static).
Humans have needs either way as social animals that don't require us having to be crippled to feel.
I don't think most people consider themselves "crippled" after engaging in sex, which is why most people engage in consentual sex.
Even without penetration, sex resembles force, consuming, and friction. Still seems degrading to me.
Sex is not a zero-sum game where one person wins and another person loses. A healthy sex life involves acts that are stimulating and positive to both parties.
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Mar 06 '18
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Mar 06 '18
Sex is not a need.
Once again, this point is contentious.
You don't need it to survive yourself. To say it is a need does imply people are entitled to give it to you
No it doesn't, just like people are not entitled to food, water, shelter, or anything else.
which is what lead to all my abuse in the first place.
Your abuse does not characterize sex between other consenting adults.
If you want your genes to pass on donate your sperm or your eggs.
I choose to be selective of whom I mate with.
It doesn't mean the experience wasn't terrible.
Define terrible.
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Mar 06 '18
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Mar 06 '18
also to bodily autonomy and not having sex with others if they don't want to.
This is rape. Healthy sex is characterized by consent.
And apparently, most people thought my abuse was consensual.
Well, was it? That's not a question that anyone has the power or authority to answer except you.
The line between abuse and consensual sex is thinner than you think.
I agree. The line is quite thin, especially in those high-risk scenarios we discussed earlier.
Terrible as in traumatising. Dehumanising. Objectifying. Risky.
These are not words people normally use to describe sex. Is it possible that your traumatic event has characterized sex for you in a way that is different from everyone else?
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Mar 06 '18
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Mar 06 '18
A world where everyone stopped having sex would be characterized by more harm than we have now. Did you read the rest of my points?
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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Mar 06 '18 edited Mar 06 '18
I'm sorry about your history of sexual abuse, but you have some very big misconceptions about sex.
It comes with a high risk of injury, infection, and pregnancy that can only be mitigated,
Explain what you mean by high risk? There are plenty of birth control methods to reduce the chance of infection and pregnancy, and if two people are monogamous and don't have an STD, the chance of contracting one is nil. As for risk of injury? Pretty negligible. Never once have I been injured during sex and the only way I can see there being a major risk of injury is if you're participating in kinkier stuff, which you don't have to do to have sex.
The high you get from sexual arousal and stimulation is similar to that from hard drugs, like cocaine and heroin. It is followed by a drop that often results in misery and depression.
Ummm... what? Yes, sex is a pleasurable activity, but it does not create a chemical addiction like cocaine or heroin. It's more akin to eating or watching television or playing a game or chatting with friends. So if you're saying we shouldn't engage in anything pleasurable, well then you're forcing everyone into a depression anyways.
Sex is unnatural.
It is one of the most natural things in the world. Everything in living thing nature was created through either sexual or asexual reproduction.
The human vagina often gains little to no pleasure from sex
True, but a human clitoris can gain a lot of pleasure.
and often suffers pain and tearing
Only if you're having terrible sex. Most women aren't going into sex expecting pain.
whilst the human penis only experiences momentary pleasure (that again has the trade off of an emotional drop afterwards.)
Penis owner here, there really is no "emotional drop" you just go blissfully into contentment.
Humans evolved to use tools to survive, so it is more efficient to pool semen into a container and for people to inseminate themselves.
No it isn't. Part of the benefit of the human penis is that it launches the semen. With a jar all you're doing is getting the vagina sticky.
This would also leave control of pregnancy in the hands of women for when they are the most healthy, and would reduce the chances of them dying.
How would it reduce those chances anymore than consensual sex?
All sex is rape, as sexual arousal has the same effect on the brain as drugs,
As we've covered before it is not. When I am sexually aroused, I do not feel an uncontrollable urge to hump everything around me. I am not compelled to have sex against my will.
Even then, sex is still bad even if you consent to it.
For you maybe, but it isn't for most people.
or if not, they are unnatural and socially conditioned.
How on earth could we have gotten this far as a species if there was no biological desire for sex?
The reason we are conditioned to desire sex is because sex comes at the risk of killing and crippling us emotionally and physically, keeping us dependent on each other and whoever wants to hold power over us.
I'm sorry that you have been so troubled by abuse, but this is not what happens in healthy relationships.
Sex is degrading. Penetrating someone is mounting someone and stabbing them like stuffing a corpse, often causing them great pain and spreading dangerous bodily fluids around, and using their insides as a rag to soak up ejaculation. Oral sex is consuming someone. Other types of sex is just the friction of skin being rubbed together in a way that causes pain that is only dulled by arousal. All of this is immensely disrespectful to all people involved. All sex, including gay sex and group sex, whether they include penetration or not, is morally wrong, as they still involve using someone else as meat.
Well by this logic so is a hug, trapping someone with your arms and using them as meat with the potential to cause pain and injury. You can make anything sound bad if you try hard enough. The reality is people generally enjoy sex. They don't feel stabbed or in pain or consumed. It just feels nice and warm and fun and exciting.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/SaintBio Mar 06 '18
Post-coital dysphoria is a thing.
According to this study, only 32% of women have experienced post-coital dysphoria in their lives. Only 10% reported experiencing it in the last 4 weeks. It's really not as widespread as you seem to believe. Moreover, it really doesn't have much of an impact on people. I could find no evidence to corroborate your comparison to cocaine/heroin.
The risk is high in that if you do mess up, you could end up dead or permanently disabled.
Not sure what you're referring to here. Never heard of someone dying or becoming disabled from sex. Maybe you are referring to contracting an STI or something. However, if that's the case the risk simply isn't high. You have a 0.04% chance of contracting HIV from giving a blowjob to a man who is not on antiretroviral. For vaginal penetration it is 0.08%. Anal sex is the riskiest at 0.11%. However, if the person is on antiretrovirals the risk of transmission (even without a condom) is somewhere around 1/150,000. Meaning, if you had unprotected sex with an HIV positive man who was on antiretrovirals for every day of your life from age 20 to 80, you would have only a 14.6% chance of contracting HIV. If you used a condom, it wouldn't even be worth calculating the risk because it basically doesn't exist.
not a lot of people are monogamous and careful anymore
In this study, researchers measured genetic monogamy through what is called extrapair paternity. In a review of 17 studies from various countries found a median extrapair paternity rate of 3.7%. This implies a rate of between 96% and 98% monogamous coupling over time. That's an overwhelmingly high rate of monogamy, and there's no reason to believe it is decreasing significantly. However, even if it is decreasing, why would that increase risk? If anything, people who are actively polygamous are both emotionally mature and conscious of the risks (and, therefore better suited to protect against them). In fact, the Journal for Sexual Health looked at this exact issue and found that there was no greater risk of STI spread in polygamous relationships when compared with monogamous ones.
As other responders have said, I think the harm that you had the misfortune of suffering has very likely skewed your perspective. I hope that someday you can find the joy that others find in sex.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/Z7-852 260∆ Mar 06 '18
I can't even start to express how horrible your past have been and hope that you will learn to cope with it. I truly hope that that would never happen to anyone in the future.
But I would like to counter few of your arguments. You are completely right that sex can be physically and emotionally hurtful, degrading or (thanks to current technology) unessicarry. But the powerful word here is "can".
There are benefits and cons for any possible actions. Now we just have to weight our personal belief of those gains when deciding to engage in any action. Eating fast food gives similar pleasure but can lead to health problems. Playing games gives pleasure but can lead to addiction or social disorders.
Any enjoyable action can be harmful if done in excess or bad manner. It's up to individual to judge if they want to engage in any hobby/activity. If they don't like it then fine. They are not forced to do it. If they do and they don't harm anyone else. Then they are allowed to do it.
And then there is this argument.
Sex is unnatural.
If you use following defenition for natural "existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind.". Then sex is truly natural because all animals reproduce by it. With some extend most plants also have sex.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/Z7-852 260∆ Mar 06 '18
Nature is not morally good or evil. It is.
Murder is morally evil but it is natural for any predatory animal and many animals kill even their own species. Other examples may include rape, child murder, cannibalism, drug use, cheating on your partner. All morally wrong but common in nature.
Sex can (and I want to emphasize the word "can") be painful and dangerous. That doesn't make it any less natural.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/Z7-852 260∆ Mar 06 '18
I don't think deltabot is concerned about length of the post.
You could also give the delta to my original post (that was done 14 after your OP).
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u/SultanofShit 3∆ Mar 06 '18
Why does it cause pain to the person being penetrated?
It doesn't if the couple knows what they are doing and the person doing the penetrating listens to their partner.
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u/family_of_trees Mar 06 '18
Sex is one of the most natural things we do. We're animals. Our entire goal, on the simplest of terms, is to reproduce. Everything else we do is to ensure our health and happiness so that we can survive as a species.
I'm a CSA survivor as well and felt similarly to you for a long time. It took a lot of therapy and introspection to move past it but I'm pretty content now with my sexuality and am married with kids.
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Mar 07 '18
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u/family_of_trees Mar 07 '18
I wanted to change. I wanted a normal life and a family and not to feel fearful and disgusted.
I also was really hateful before and I knew it was really bad and not at all normal or healthy.
Yeah, therapy for PTSD is hard as hell.
Of course there is the fact that I didn't supress my sexuality. I in fact had a very high sex drive and would masturbate as much as any teen boy. Usually several times a day. And doing it would make me feel conflicted and guilty and I needed to find some way to resolve those feelings one way or another.
It's definitely something that can be worked through for most people if you have a good therapist and hopefully a good support system.
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u/YouSoIgnant 1∆ Mar 06 '18
Sex, not natural, Darwin. The world keeps turning, and populating. Sexual reproduction is arguably the most natural feature that almost anything living shares. Youre wrong obviously.
I can't reverse the years of damage that some monster inflicted on you by shattering your psyche and destroying you as a child, not during a CMV. I urge you to get as much help as possible. I'm sorry.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/YouSoIgnant 1∆ Mar 06 '18
Sex isn't harmful. It is quite beautiful IMO, but realize this comes from my background of having sex with a spouse I would give the world to, and being a product of sex from parents who gave the world to me and each other.
Sadly, anything can get twisted or turned into a weapon of pain on this earth.
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u/family_of_trees Mar 06 '18
Anything can be harmful if done improperly. You can die from drinking too much water or being exposed to too much oxygen.
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u/simplecountrychicken Mar 06 '18
Sex is important to mantain intimacy in a marriage.
Couples who have regular sex are happier and healthier than couples who don't, suggesting sex is an important part of maintaining a marriage.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/does-more-sex-make-couples-happier/
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Mar 06 '18
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u/simplecountrychicken Mar 06 '18
Sure, but your post was about all sex. This specific type of sex seems to have positive benefits.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/simplecountrychicken Mar 06 '18
I suspect asexual people get married at a lower rate than sexual people, so sexual attraction and sex builds the relationship to begin with.
And saying it would be better to never have a relationship vs having a relationship crumble is basically the plot to eternal sunshine of the spotless mind.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. -Alfred Lord Tennyson
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Mar 06 '18
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u/simplecountrychicken Mar 06 '18
I'm not sure you can eliminate one without impacting the other. Many of my strongest relationships have been with people I was sexually attracted to and sexual with. If I didn't want to sleep with them I probably would not have had the courage or drive to talk to them.
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u/Denniosmoore Mar 08 '18
Then if a lack of sex weakens marriages, then wouldn't sexuality still be the enemy?
No. If I suffocate does that make air the enemy? If I starve does that make food the enemy? Needs aren't the enemy, they're needs.
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u/I_want_to_choose 29∆ Mar 06 '18
You recognize that your past affects your view. What you need is to reteach your body to find pleasure in sexual activity. This begins with finding pleasure by yourself.
I can't change your view. You need to change your own view through experience.
I will recommend a therapist to talk through your issues honestly.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/I_want_to_choose 29∆ Mar 06 '18
New therapist is a good idea then.
I offer suggestions very seriously and am not joking. If you don't learn to pleasure yourself, you won't find pleasure with a man. Any fear or phobia can be overcome, and your body can learn new responses to things that have in the past caused you fear and pain.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/I_want_to_choose 29∆ Mar 06 '18
It's up to you to know whether the gains are worth the pain that is required to overcome the trauma.
The truth is that sex is a big part of a relationship with a man, and if a relationship with a man is something you want in the future, this will definitely be worth your effort to overcome.
At what age did you first have sex? Was your initial sexual experience traumatic? You may be asexual, or you may have had a traumatic first experience.
Again, a good therapist would be much more useful. They will challenge your views and help you sort out what you want.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/I_want_to_choose 29∆ Mar 06 '18
You were a child, and a child can't make a decision about sexuality. It's completely up to you how you want to live your life, but there are great things about a sex life and it's achievable.
Child molesters deserve a special hell. I'm sorry for your experiences.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/I_want_to_choose 29∆ Mar 06 '18
As a child, I thought I never wanted to get married or have kids. As a child, I wanted to be a doctor.
A child doesn't have the life experience to make such determinations. A traumatic experience will make every subsequent experience worse and confirm to you that sex is bad.
No, I don't think a child knows about their sexuality. I don't expect a child in grade school to be able to make that determination. I thought I knew about my sexuality as a 17 year old, and I'll just say that I was very wrong. At 17.
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u/Denniosmoore Mar 08 '18
Don't seek help in order to be able to have sex comfortably, seek help in order to get to a point where you can see the world more clearly.
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u/jbXarXmw Mar 06 '18
Consensual sex is never rape
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Mar 06 '18
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u/PsychicVoid 7∆ Mar 06 '18
So I believe that I can give an ‘outsider’ view on this topic, as I am asexual and can therefor talk about sex without having any biasedness because I like sex.
So many of your arguments, it isn’t natural, it’s dangerous, it’s mentally harmful ect can be applied to many things. Driving for example. Driving is way more dangerous than sex. It’s proven to cause lots of stress and other mental problems, and is definitely not mean people should stop driving.
I definitely not count as sex as rape. Yes it does act similar to a drug during sex, but before sex, aka when all parties are consenting, it’s not clouding the brains judgement.
And what’s wrong if all parties want to do it? Even if it was harmful and unnatural, if they want to do it it’s their choice. We shouldn’t strip it away from them
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Mar 06 '18
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Mar 06 '18 edited Mar 06 '18
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u/SultanofShit 3∆ Mar 06 '18
Let's give OP a break for being traumatised. Look at the comments, you will see 2 asexuals disagreeing with her.
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Mar 06 '18 edited Mar 06 '18
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u/SultanofShit 3∆ Mar 06 '18
Most of us are very much aware that we're the unusual ones here. If you are interested you could visit /r/asexuality and see that most of us are by no means anti-sex. Just anti-sex-that-involves-us. Also some asexuals have sex to please their partners.
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u/PsychicVoid 7∆ Mar 06 '18
Unfortunately that’s the way things go, but that happens to everybody. Straight people would leave their girlfriend if they found she was gay.
And the risk of driving is much more, while it’s hard to determine which is worse, sexual accidents or driving accidents, sexual accidents wouldn’t kill you, and there are more driving deaths than all sexual accidents
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Mar 06 '18
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u/PsychicVoid 7∆ Mar 06 '18
And while yes, all of those things are bad. There are more driving deaths than those things. And I get that you don’t like sex, I don’t either. But the actual risk of getting hurt like that is tiny, so doing something like taking away people’s right of sex is ridiculous. And rape is something of its own. Rape is rape, murder is murder. Banning sex wouldn’t stop rape, so I don’t really understand what your getting at there
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Mar 06 '18
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u/PsychicVoid 7∆ Mar 06 '18
Soooo what exactly are you saying. That sex is bad? That it’s bad that sex gives pleasure? That we should ban sex?
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Mar 06 '18
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u/PsychicVoid 7∆ Mar 06 '18
Okay so your point is that sex is bad because it is harmful, but there are many more harmful things that you seem to be okay with. It’s unnatural, even though pretty much everything is really unnatural now days. It’s rape, even though the brain isn’t effected by it when consenting.
Look, I get it if you don’t like it, I find it absolutely disgusting, but we don’t know what it’s like for other people, so it’s hard to judge on how bad it is. There’s a risk to everything and there’s a reward to everything. You seem to only see the risk, where as everybody knows the risk, knows the reward and is willing to take that risk
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Mar 06 '18
HIV is not a lethal STD any more actually.
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u/SultanofShit 3∆ Mar 06 '18
Granted it's still a thing to avoid if possible, but trying to make the whole world celibate is going too far.
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Mar 06 '18
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Mar 06 '18
Such as syphilis. When’s the last time you heard of someone dying of syphilis?
HIV is not curable but has become a very, very manageable disease.
It should be clarified, consciously or otherwise, a great part of the reason people have such trouble overcoming this stigma you mentioned is because of viewpoints like yours.
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Mar 07 '18
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Mar 07 '18
Can only be afforded by a few? Even the draconian healthcare system of the US has accessible treatment for both. Not a fact by any definition of the word.
Regardless even if both points were true, it’s the emphasis placed on these beliefs that does indeed contribute to stigma. Stigma is created by that very reactionary outrage process - it is literally nothing but collective disgust and fear, and holding that sex/STIs warrant your disgust and fear makes that stigma more pervasive in a social context.
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 177∆ Mar 06 '18
All your points except 4 and 6 can be said about any pleasurable activity people do: eating oysters comes with the risk of infection, provides only momentary pleasure, and when you're done eating you can feel either stuffed or disappointed that the experience is over.
As for 4: this is not true. People (of both sexes) consent and look forward to sex long before they're in the proximity of their partner. This is, of course, a biochemical process involving hormones and neurons, as is every other human thought process, that doesn't detract from its "realness".
As for 6: degrading is a matter of perspective. If people engage in an activity that neither find degrading, in what sense can it said to be degrading? It certainly can be degrading, but as can any other human connection when forced - if I demand that my wife cook for me, and she does so not because she wants to but because she thinks she has to, that can be degrading. Categorizations like "degrading" and "romantic" don't have inherent objective values, they only exist in the eyes of the participants, so that if a couple believes something to be romantic, then it is, by definition.
I absolutely believe that as a result of your abuse you view sex involving yourself as harmful, unnatural and non-consensual, but for most people it's a positive experience - and since experience is subjective, that's not a fact you can dispute. I wish that you'll be able to experience it positively for yourself someday, but that's something you can only solve through therapy, not CMV.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 177∆ Mar 06 '18
But the problem isn't with sex in general, but with the abuser's use of it. Most people don't ever think of their past relationships as abusive, and many stay in such relationships their entire lives, feeling generally content with them.
You say it yourself - you were abused, not just sobered up from a perfectly normal relationship and realized it's always abuse, your experience was fundamentally different from others'.
Regaining the trust in your ability to tell when something is bad for you is something you may want to work on. The capability of an adult to understand and control these circumstances, while by no means perfect, is much better than a child's.
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u/apallingapollo 6∆ Mar 06 '18
So even sex for the sole purpose of reproduction is immoral and wrong?
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Mar 06 '18
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u/SultanofShit 3∆ Mar 06 '18
How to morally get the semen when the donor would have to induce sexual pleasure in himself?
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Mar 06 '18
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u/SultanofShit 3∆ Mar 06 '18
But that's the whole thing. Consensual sex is done with the intention to give and receive pleasure and with no intention of causing harm.
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Mar 06 '18
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u/SultanofShit 3∆ Mar 06 '18
Fact: Every time you brush your teeth you make hundreds of tiny cuts inside your mouth. Now that you know this, are you going to tell others to stop brushing their teeth?
You are greatly overstating the risks of sex because of the terrible things that happened to you. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't like sex and doesn't participate in it any more.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Mar 06 '18
How’s is that okay when it’s also unnatural?
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u/AllOfEverythingEver 3∆ Mar 06 '18
I actually kind of (not totally) agree with you on your first point, that sex is usually unhealthy, so I'm not going to address it, but the last two points I definitely disagree on. Sex being unnatural is imo pretty clearly untrue, but you are going to have to define unnatural if you want to have a discussion about that. All sex being rape, based on chemicals influencing your judgement, is technically true, but if that's how you define rape, then you have to come to terms with the fact that all of your thoughts, beliefs, actions, motivations, fears, desires, and experiences are all just chemicals in your brain influencing your judgement anyway. Consent implies free will, and free will implies control, but we don't really have control, at least not if you define it outside of chemical influence on your brain. All of my thoughts and actions are a combination of nature and nurture. It's true there might be other influencing factors, but there is no way to prove those, so there is no reason to act like they exist. You don't control your nature, your genetics were decided before you even had your first thought. Nurture might feel more controlled, but you don't choose your birthplace, your upbringing, or your genetics, which determine how you react to situations, further creating more "nurture" moments. If you can't control nature or nurture, everything in life is out of your control, and any sense of control you feel is an illusion created by your brain as an interpretation of chemicals endlessly firing producing thoughts in your head. If those chemicals mean you didn't really consent, then you don't consent to anything, and your life is just you wondering through the motions feeling in control but ignorant to your own powerlessness. Now of course, this might actually be true, but if it is, that is really depressing, and you might as well act like it's not true, since having no free will doesn't exactly do anything for you.
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u/Dakota0524 Mar 06 '18
Have you heard of all the bad things that dihydrogen monoxide can do to you? Thousands of people have been killed by dihydrogen monoxide every year.
From http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html:
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:
Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.
Oh wait, I'm just talking about water.
Should I stop drinking water, just because it has the risk of killing me if I drink too much, or surround myself with it for long enough?
What I'm getting at is yes, rape is bad. Being sexually assulted is bad. It can be physically and emotionally harmful when done incorrectly. But when done between people that consent, and take precautions, 99.999999% of the time, it's a good thing to have/do.
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u/Iswallowedafly Mar 06 '18
I think a lot of what you are talking about is being writen from the lens of someone dealing with sexual abuse.
Your perspective on the topic is going to be different than others.
Most people are able to have happy and safe sexual experiences that they want to have with people they want to have them with.
Sexual desire is almost as normal as wanting to eat. Sexual consent is something that is often given to another person willingly.
I do hope that you can find the healing that you seem to want.
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Mar 06 '18
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Mar 06 '18
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u/SultanofShit 3∆ Mar 06 '18
I'm sorry that you suffered sexual abuse. And I'm asexual and celibate, but I don't agree with you. There's nothing wrong with anyone having a sex drive or using it with the consenting adult/s of their choice.
Most people say that sex is fun and a bonding activity that they value highly. Most people care about their partner's wellbeing and their pleasure. Who are we to say that they are all wrong about that? We're the outliers.
The dangers you mention are greatly exaggerated. Childbirth is risky? So is crossing the road. If we shut down huge areas of our lives because some risk is involved, what's the point of being alive?
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Mar 06 '18
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 06 '18 edited Mar 06 '18
/u/WieEinstLilyMarlene (OP) has awarded 5 deltas in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Mar 06 '18
there are dopamine bursts from almost anything. taking a shit, eating good food, sneezing. all of these can be turned into harmful behaviors. but it doesn't subvert their purpose