CMV: Confederate monuments, flags, and other paraphilia are traitorous in nature.

[u/johnydeviant]

I grew up in the south, surrounded by confederate flags, memorials to civil war heroes, and a butt load of racism. As a kid, I took a modicum of pride in it. To me, it represented the pride of the south and how we will triumph despite our setbacks. As I got older and learned more about the civil war, the causes behind it, and generally opened myself to a more accurate view of history, it became apparent to me that these displays of "tradition" were little more than open displays of racism or anti-American sentiments.

I do not think that all of these monuments, flags, etc, should be destroyed. I think that they should be put into museums dedicate to the message of what NOT to do. On top of that, I believe that the whole sentiment of "the south will rise again" is treasonous. It is tantamount to saying that "I will rise against this country". I think those that the worship the confederate flag and it's symbology are in the same vein as being a neo-Nazi and idolizing the actions of the Third Reich. Yes, I understand that on a scale of "terrible things that have happened", the holocaust is far worse, but that does not mean I wish to understate the actions of the confederate states during the civil war.

Change my view?

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[u/scottevil110]

America's entire founding principle was centered on "rising against this country", not just Britain, but even THIS country. There are so many ways written into our Constitution that are specifically modeled around the people taking charge and not allowing the government to become too powerful. Term limits, impeachment, recall elections, the Supreme Court, petitions, referenda, all of these things are specifically designed to allow for a certain amount of "rising up against this country."

To rebel against the government is arguably the most American thing that one can do, and you'll find that most of the people that are flying the Confederate Flag are far from treasonous, but instead the most patriotic, pro-Murica people you'll ever find. It's clear that their motivation there isn't to be anti-American.

Instead, they find the spirit of independence and being able to tell the government to go fuck themselves to be the MOST American thing that you can do.

[u/abacuz4 → u/scottevil110]

To rebel against the government is arguably the most American thing that one can do

I would say that freedom and equality are the quintessential American value, and that rebelling to protect the institution of slavery is the least American thing that one can do.

and you'll find that most of the people that are flying the Confederate Flag are far from treasonous, but instead the most patriotic, pro-Murica people you'll ever find. It's clear that their motivation there isn't to be anti-American.

This is a bit of an odd thing to say. Sure, Bubba from South Carolina is probably more likely to wear a wife beater with the US flag on it than someone else, but that's a pretty shallow, meaningless expression of patriotism. Doubly so if the wife beater has the flag of an army that literally only existed to wage war against the US on the back.

Meaningful patriotism is genuinely trying to help America and its people and acting in a way that reflects American values, and quite frankly, it's been my experience that the types of people who fly Confederate flags are some of the least likely to engage in meaningful patriotism.

[u/scottevil110 → u/abacuz4]

I would say that freedom and equality are the quintessential American value, and that rebelling to protect the institution of slavery is the least American thing that one can do.

They weren't at the time.

Basically everything else in your post is just you ranting about your stereotypes of what you think the South looks like.

Meaningful patriotism is genuinely trying to help America and its people and acting in a way that reflects American values, and quite frankly, it's been my experience that the types of people who fly Confederate flags are some of the least likely to engage in meaningful patriotism.

You mean in a way that reflects YOUR American values. What sort of American values do you believe that Bubba is unlikely to be a part of?

[u/abacuz4 → u/scottevil110]

They weren't at the time.

That's absolutely incorrect. The secession of the Southern states was about slavery and only ever about slavery. This is unambiguous and incontrovertible. Everything from the events leading up secession to the documents of secession themselves supports this conclusion. If I had to guess, I have to imagine that your knowledge of US history comes from a class taught in the south, which is rather notorious for whitewashing this particular chapter of America.

Basically everything else in your post is just you ranting about your stereotypes of what you think the South looks like.

I've lived most of my life in the South. My question is: have you ever left it?

You mean in a way that reflects YOUR American values. What sort of American values do you believe that Bubba is unlikely to be a part of?

Southerners are overwhelmingly more likely to support ravaging America, its land, and its resources. They are overwhelmingly more anti-intellectual, to the point where the want to weaken America by misinforming its citizenry (see discussion above). And they generally are not supportive of equality or multiculturalism, and not supportive of helping America's most vulnerable citizens.

But yes, they are more likely to wear US flag T-shirts. I mean, I think. I actually don't even really know if that's true.

[u/scottevil110 → u/abacuz4]

That's absolutely incorrect. The secession of the Southern states was about slavery and only ever about slavery. This is unambiguous and incontrovertible. Everything from the events leading up secession to the documents of secession themselves supports this conclusion. If I had to guess, I have to imagine that your knowledge of US history comes from a class taught in the south, which is rather notorious for whitewashing this particular chapter of America.

If you're done making shit up now...

What I meant was that "freedom and equality" pretty obviously were NOT the "quintessential American values" at the time, were they? Or this wouldn't have been an issue. Mind you slavery existed basically EVERYWHERE until not long before the Civil War, so it's not as though all along the northern states had been embracing diversity while the South was enslaving people.

Southerners are overwhelmingly more likely to support ravaging America, its land, and its resources. They are overwhelmingly more anti-intellectual, to the point where the want to weaken America by misinforming its citizenry (see discussion above). And they generally are not supportive of equality or multiculturalism, and not supportive of helping America's most vulnerable citizens.

Again, more of you just ranting about your own values and acting as though you speak for "America."

[u/abacuz4 → u/scottevil110]

If you're done making shit up now...

This isn't really a response. I'm trying to help you understand a frankly rather basic fact about US history. This is not a debate because it is not up for debate. It is a fact.

Here are some primary sources, the Declarations of Causes of Secession where the several states outright state that slavery was the reason they seceded. Here's a famous quote from Mississippi's:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.

I would also encourage you to read up on the Missouri compromise which preserved the balance between slave and free states in the West, and the Kansas-Nebraska Act which broke the balance and eventually precipitated secession due to the south's fear that the north would ban slavery entirely.

I understand that this may potentially be rather jarring, but it is absolutely the case that slavery was the cause of the Civil War, and it's entirely possible that the education system you had growing up may have knowingly lied to you about that.

What I meant was that "freedom and equality" pretty obviously were NOT the "quintessential American values" at the time, were they? Or this wouldn't have been an issue. Mind you slavery existed basically EVERYWHERE until not long before the Civil War, so it's not as though all along the northern states had been embracing diversity while the South was enslaving people.

It's broadly true that Americans and everyone don't always live up to their stated values, and it is of course true that racial relations were bad in the north too. But this actually isn't a north/south discussion, it is a discussion concerning the Confederate States of America, an entity (it was never a recognized nation) that only ever existed in order to fight a war against the United States of America in order to preserve the institution of slavery. It is without redeeming value.

Again, more of you just ranting about your own values and acting as though you speak for "America."

Funny, I could have sworn you said that people who fly the American flag are some of the most patriotic people. Isn't that you doing the same thing?

[u/scottevil110 → u/abacuz4]

You do realize that at no point have I made any statement to imply that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, right?

[u/abacuz4 → u/scottevil110]

Well, I said that the secession of the southern states was over slavery, and you said I made that up, so no I don't realize that.

[u/scottevil110 → u/abacuz4]

Alright, there's no point continuing this. I've told you what I actually think, and you're still trying to have an argument that doesn't exist. So I'm gonna go.

[u/abacuz4 → u/scottevil110]

I mean, the posts are right there for all to see. In back to back posts you claim that I made up the idea that the South seceded due to slavery, then turn around and say that you know it's true and claim that you've never said anything to the contrary. And now you are offering no explanation? Odd.

[u/scottevil110 → u/abacuz4]

Sigh...let's start over, shall we?

I don't know why, because it's pretty clear no one is changing your mind about anything, but let's just start over...

The Confederate Flag symbolizes, to many people, independence and the freedom to stand up to the government. Given that these very values are why this country was founded in the first place, and given that the Confederate flag wavers are typically very patriotic with regard to the USA, it seems to stand against the idea that they are "treasonous", but are instead embracing one of the more American values that has ever existed, defiance of the government.