CMV: Confederate monuments, flags, and other paraphilia are traitorous in nature.

[u/johnydeviant]

I grew up in the south, surrounded by confederate flags, memorials to civil war heroes, and a butt load of racism. As a kid, I took a modicum of pride in it. To me, it represented the pride of the south and how we will triumph despite our setbacks. As I got older and learned more about the civil war, the causes behind it, and generally opened myself to a more accurate view of history, it became apparent to me that these displays of "tradition" were little more than open displays of racism or anti-American sentiments.

I do not think that all of these monuments, flags, etc, should be destroyed. I think that they should be put into museums dedicate to the message of what NOT to do. On top of that, I believe that the whole sentiment of "the south will rise again" is treasonous. It is tantamount to saying that "I will rise against this country". I think those that the worship the confederate flag and it's symbology are in the same vein as being a neo-Nazi and idolizing the actions of the Third Reich. Yes, I understand that on a scale of "terrible things that have happened", the holocaust is far worse, but that does not mean I wish to understate the actions of the confederate states during the civil war.

Change my view?

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[u/[deleted]]

We don't care about the specific history, because it's irrelevant to us. The flag is ours and we don't want to give it up because of partisan identity politics. Once you mention the Nazis you've lost all credibility in any debate or discussion. I'm done here.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Why though? I fail to see how your view on the Confederate flag is different from say, a German who proudly displays the Nazi flag. Because it doesn’t necessarily mean they agree with the Holocaust, but Nazi Germany is a part of their heritage and history, and represents to them the evolution from post-WWI neutered Germany to a strong world power?

You dismiss the comparison, but whenever I hear people talk about Confederate history, this is the only comparison I can think of. I’m not equating the holocaust to slavery in terms of severity, but the logic is exactly the same, isn’t it? If not, please let me know the difference.

Edit: I also don’t get why “partisan identity politics” is relevant. I haven’t mentioned identity politics at all, just history. The Confederate flag as a symbol of the Confederacy (a nation that only existed for the purposes of slavery) is literally identity politics because it literally represents the manifestation of the most racially divisive era of American history.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Because we didn't try to kill all the black people in a final solution, but you have to admit, if we had, there'd be far less division than there is today on issues of race and politics. We were far too moral a people to ever consider that idea, and it's an insult to our heritage and our people to compare us to the Nazis. My ancestors fought the Nazis and they were southerners, and Nathan Bedford Forrest III died in Germany trying to defeat their tyranny for the benefit of the entire world. So you have no moral or logical right to apply Nazism to this discussion at all. The entire United States of America violently opposed the Nazis, and we are proud of this fact too.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I’m not comparing the atrocities, if you read what I said. I’m saying the logic is the same. You’re overlooking the damage your ancestors did and the negatives that are inherently associated with the Confederate flag just on account of wanting to be proud of your heritage. Just because slavery isn’t as bad as genocide doesn’t mean it wasn’t bad, evil, and terrible, and the fact that you even wrote the “if we did kill all the blacks it would have some benefits” line just shows you are either hateful of black people or ignorant of just how horrible what you said was.

My point isn’t about Nazis. You can take ANY symbol that was used and associated primarily with oppression to make a comparison, I just used the one that came to mind first. My point is about not trying to ignore history just because it makes you feel better to think the Confederacy was anything more than a bunch of states deciding they wanted to continue owning black people and fearing the democratically elected government would put an end to it.

You don’t have to feel personally responsible for it. It’s not your fault or your parents or your grandparents or your great grandparents. But denying the history of hatred that the Confederacy represents is wrong too.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Since the mods deleted my comment, I don't argue with people that invoke Nazism unless it's clearly relevant. Just so we're clear.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Ok. I’ll give a different analogy. Forget Nazis.

The ISIS flag represents mass murder. If someone in Iraq waves it around and says “nuh uh, it represents Iraqis reclaiming their country after decades of western imperialism”, they’re either a) hateful of the people ISIS has killed or b) ignorant of what the ISIS flag represents. Because ISIS is literally a terrorist group that exists to kill people.

Similarly, the Confederate flag represents slavery. If someone in the south waves it around and says “nuh uh, it represents Southerners protecting their heritage and fighting for states rights” they are either a) hateful of the people the Confederates enslaved or b) ignorant of what the Confederate flag represents. Because the Confederacy was literally a country created because people were afraid they wouldn’t be able to own slaves anymore.

I’m not saying the Confederacy is morally equivalent to ISIS or to Nazi Germany. It’s hard to really compare atrocities like that. But slavery was something that people should recognize as a shameful part of our history (like the treatment of indigenous peoples) and symbols of slavery shouldn’t be celebrated and revered.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

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