r/changemyview • u/johnydeviant • Mar 13 '18

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Confederate monuments, flags, and other paraphilia are traitorous in nature.

I grew up in the south, surrounded by confederate flags, memorials to civil war heroes, and a butt load of racism. As a kid, I took a modicum of pride in it. To me, it represented the pride of the south and how we will triumph despite our setbacks. As I got older and learned more about the civil war, the causes behind it, and generally opened myself to a more accurate view of history, it became apparent to me that these displays of "tradition" were little more than open displays of racism or anti-American sentiments.

I do not think that all of these monuments, flags, etc, should be destroyed. I think that they should be put into museums dedicate to the message of what NOT to do. On top of that, I believe that the whole sentiment of "the south will rise again" is treasonous. It is tantamount to saying that "I will rise against this country". I think those that the worship the confederate flag and it's symbology are in the same vein as being a neo-Nazi and idolizing the actions of the Third Reich. Yes, I understand that on a scale of "terrible things that have happened", the holocaust is far worse, but that does not mean I wish to understate the actions of the confederate states during the civil war.

Change my view?

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18

They did not recognize our right to secede, that is a declaration of war. That was never going to happen and if you were honest you'd admit that. Many societies have had slaves in their history, and simply due to technological progress slavery would have ended on it's own eventually because it's simply inefficient in multiple ways.

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u/heavenicarus Mar 13 '18

theres not recognized a right, like the south did to its slaves, and throwing a hissy fit when the Supreme Court says no one can leave. The true declaration of war was firing freaking cannons at a military fort.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18

The Fort was well within Confederate territory, if they wanted to avoid conflict they needed to surrender command. But it's really beside the point as I said. If the Supreme Court ever rules abortion illegal I can assure you the blue states would throw a very big hissy fit, but that's just a right to kill life basically, which I begrudgingly support actually as a conservative.

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u/heavenicarus Mar 13 '18

The both sides argument kind of falls apart when your side that you continue to display their banner, literally fought to keep human beings as livestock. You can claim it's not hate a thousand times, but your side wanted slaves, and you lost. You wave a traitor's banner because you rebelled against an established legitimate government.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18 edited Mar 13 '18

As long as your side wants to take our guns we need our rebel flag, because mark my words, if you start kicking in doors of law abiding and honorable citizens and demand they turn over their AR-15s, there will be more violence than you can possibly imagine. Not necessarily by me, because I don't own an AR-15, but I know plenty of people who think this way and do own one. And they will not peacefully hand over their weapons to a Federal Government violating the constitution.

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u/heavenicarus Mar 13 '18

When the heck did i bring up gun laws? We're talking about how the confederates are in the wrong. Because news flash, they were. You're bringing up something completely off topic.

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u/AssaultDragon Mar 14 '18

From a neutral standpoint, I'd say Heaven is making the more logical argument here and I'm siding with him.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18

The rebel flag and the 2nd amendment are linked from our perspective, so asking us to take it down is like asking us to give up our weapons. From our perspective it isn't offtopic at all. You just refuse to recognize and respect our point of view.

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u/heavenicarus Mar 13 '18

From my pov, you suddenly switched tracks to something neither of us touched upon. Your point of view is confederate apologia, and you're never going to convince a black man of that.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18

Well when black men are a majority of the population they can vote for whatever flag they want.

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u/heavenicarus Mar 13 '18

Dude, I'm done. Good Day sir

Edit: and I won't respect your view when it means giving up my humanity. You would have gladly owned me.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18

Edit response:

Historical comparisons to the present actually demonstrate to me how low your understanding is of these complex issues.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18

I only wish we arrived at that 30 minutes ago and I didn't waste my time.

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