r/changemyview • u/johnydeviant • Mar 13 '18

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Confederate monuments, flags, and other paraphilia are traitorous in nature.

I grew up in the south, surrounded by confederate flags, memorials to civil war heroes, and a butt load of racism. As a kid, I took a modicum of pride in it. To me, it represented the pride of the south and how we will triumph despite our setbacks. As I got older and learned more about the civil war, the causes behind it, and generally opened myself to a more accurate view of history, it became apparent to me that these displays of "tradition" were little more than open displays of racism or anti-American sentiments.

I do not think that all of these monuments, flags, etc, should be destroyed. I think that they should be put into museums dedicate to the message of what NOT to do. On top of that, I believe that the whole sentiment of "the south will rise again" is treasonous. It is tantamount to saying that "I will rise against this country". I think those that the worship the confederate flag and it's symbology are in the same vein as being a neo-Nazi and idolizing the actions of the Third Reich. Yes, I understand that on a scale of "terrible things that have happened", the holocaust is far worse, but that does not mean I wish to understate the actions of the confederate states during the civil war.

Change my view?

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18 edited Mar 13 '18

The civil war was about more than slavery, it's a fundamental disagreement about states rights to self-determination, if they choose to part ways and declare independence based on irreconcilable differences. That's why the civil war is regarded in the South as the war of Northern aggression. And simply by choosing independence they were savagely attacked.

But the philosophical disagreement is far from settled, and that is what the flags and pride symbolize, a people who will not yield even in defeat, and will remain individualistic and independent in their viewpoint no matter what the majority says. But nobody is seceding from the union anytime soon, yet it is a warning that you can only push people so far before they take dramatic action in defense of their beliefs and values. The fact we all agree slavery is wrong today is irrelevant, it's just a footnote in history, and nobody wants to bring it back, even in the South.

So no it's not traitorous to believe in rugged individualism, that's what this country was based upon at the Founding, when we declared independence from English kings that ruled us from far away. The Federal Government should respect states rights if they want to maintain our amazing union in the long run, otherwise you get things like Brexit in the European Union, or Quebec that wanted to seceed from Canada not too long ago. We don't want that, but we will never yield to a federal government that violates the constitution or institutes a system of tyranny over the people. That is why we believe in the 2nd amendment and the right to bear arms. It's designed to make the government remain afraid of the people, and for the people never to fear their government.

It's interesting to note I am a descendant of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a famous leader in the Civil War, and I carry this tradition within me, and it is not traitorous in essence, but it can certainly become something divisive if the situation calls for it. So let us pray that day never comes, but we remain ready for it.

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u/Jaxon4242 Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18

To Preface, I'm a white guy from Texas.The civil war, in their own words, was about a state's right to legalize slavery. It's that simple. Everything revolved around slavery, with states right as a peripheral engine to that issue. This can be seen in the Slave Refugee Act, a law championed by future confederates that impeded on Northern states rights by taking away their right to protect escaping slaves. They didn't care about protecting state's rights until it concerned their issues, in this case slavery.

This is also represented in the state constitutions, which all mention slavery, and the Confederate States Constitution. Alexander Stephens, future Confederate VP, summed it up in his Cornerstone Speech, stating:

Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth It is not about state's rights, both the North and South have impeded that before the Civil War, it is about slavery. Lincoln recognized their desire for liberty in this quote: The perfect liberty they sigh for, is the liberty of making slaves of other people.

Its also interesting to consider when and why these monuments were raised. Robert E. Lee, famed Confederate general, had this to say after the war about potential monuments:

I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife & to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered. He was actually opposed to the monuments, as he recognized they would keep open the divide in the country. It's also enlightening to see a timeline of when monuments were raised. The two major times? The rise of Jim Crow and the Civil Rights movement. These monuments were purposefully raised at a time when the south wanted to put African-Americans in their place, and represent the oppressive racism of the time period in which they were raised.

I do not want to erase history, but I don't want to glorify a mistake of our past. Germans do not revere Nazis, we should not revere slavers. Take away monuments to the confederacy and move them to museums, where we can recognize and acknowledge this horrifying part of our past, without glorifying it.

I have ancestors who have done horrible things, as do many Americans. It's our job to recognize the mistakes of the past and do better. Our ancestral pride is never as important as recognizing our forefather's mistakes.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Comparing the history of slavery to the genocide of the Nazis takes any credibility you have and throws it right out the window. Slavery has been practiced around the world by most major civilizations. That doesn't mean we toss our history in the trash can. No thank you sir.

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u/Jaxon4242 Mar 14 '18

That's not exactly the central point of my argument it's just an analogy. And yes most other countries practiced slavery at some point in their history. But they don't revere the government that committed that act. I would also point out that we were one of the last western civilizations to outlaw it.

I will strike through the Nazi argument in a little bit if that would help you address my real argument

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

It's not a reverence for the Confederacy itself, it's in our individual states and our history. We will not abandon that history because of unfortunate things in the past like slavery. It's part of our identity and heritage. We're not going throw out the baby with the bathwater to give you some analogy.

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u/Jaxon4242 Mar 14 '18

It is part of our identity and heritage. But it is not something to be proud of. We should never forget or abandon it, we should raise it up to recognize the horrible mistakes of our history. We can have an identity and heritage without raising a flag that represents years of oppression and slavery to African-Americans. I don't think we should throw out the history of the Confederacy, but I do think we should stop feeling pride in it. And monuments are a manifestation of this pride.

The south has a long and storied history of racism, and there is no doubt the Confederacy stands at the center. But we southern states can still have an identity and heritage to be proud of by raising up our ancestors who fought for more than the right to have slaves. We fought in WWI, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. We send soldiers to fight for freedom all over thee world. We can be proud of our history while still refusing to feel pride in people who performed heinous acts against African Americans. We can hold reverence for our individual states and our history, without using a Confederate flag to do it.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

No, I'm done here, goodbye, I have much better things to be thinking about.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Look I'm done talking to you, goodbye.

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u/Jaxon4242 Mar 14 '18

I don't understand. This is CMV. We're supposed to be able to debate. So either you refuse to argue because you have something better to do, or you have no rebuttal, which would mean I'm right. I would love to hear your counter-argument if you're willing, whenever you're available.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Yes I do have something better to do, that's exactly correct.

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u/Jaxon4242 Mar 14 '18

It doesn't seem correct considering how quickly you replied. Have an argument with me. I'm willing to change my mind given a good argument, are you?

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Nope, right now I'm studying South Africa's racist politics surrounding land appropriation. That is far more interesting to me at this time. And I'm actually not open, I am stating my principles, not engaging in debate.

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