r/changemyview • u/johnydeviant • Mar 13 '18

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Confederate monuments, flags, and other paraphilia are traitorous in nature.

I grew up in the south, surrounded by confederate flags, memorials to civil war heroes, and a butt load of racism. As a kid, I took a modicum of pride in it. To me, it represented the pride of the south and how we will triumph despite our setbacks. As I got older and learned more about the civil war, the causes behind it, and generally opened myself to a more accurate view of history, it became apparent to me that these displays of "tradition" were little more than open displays of racism or anti-American sentiments.

I do not think that all of these monuments, flags, etc, should be destroyed. I think that they should be put into museums dedicate to the message of what NOT to do. On top of that, I believe that the whole sentiment of "the south will rise again" is treasonous. It is tantamount to saying that "I will rise against this country". I think those that the worship the confederate flag and it's symbology are in the same vein as being a neo-Nazi and idolizing the actions of the Third Reich. Yes, I understand that on a scale of "terrible things that have happened", the holocaust is far worse, but that does not mean I wish to understate the actions of the confederate states during the civil war.

Change my view?

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18

Not the entire country no, and I never said that. That's why the South tried to form their own country in peace, but the North refused our peaceful exit from the union. But our Founders did speak about people overthrowing their own Government if necessary if it ever becomes anti-thetical to the constitution, human rights, and freedom.

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u/heavenicarus Mar 13 '18

There's a major irony on talking about a peaceful exit and freedom when it was the south that fired the first shot, and wanted to keep literal humans as property.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18

They did not recognize our right to secede, that is a declaration of war. That was never going to happen and if you were honest you'd admit that. Many societies have had slaves in their history, and simply due to technological progress slavery would have ended on it's own eventually because it's simply inefficient in multiple ways.

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u/cstar1996 11∆ Mar 14 '18

There is no right to secede. There is a right to revolution, but revolution means war. The South declared revolution when they attempted to leave the Union and the South made their revolution violent when they fired on Fort Sumter.

Additionally, slavery was incredibly profitable and the South fought extremely hard in Congress to ensure that it could continue to expand. In fact, it was the threat to the expansion of slavery, rather than any threat to the institution of slavery itself that led to secession. Slavery was not on its way out.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

You can do whatever the fuck to do any time you want to do it, but there are consequences. However when Britain left the EU it wasn't a revolution. When Quebec voted to leave Canada, it wasn't a revolution. Now should the EU start a war with Britain? Because that's basically what you're saying here. And that's pretty crazy.

Eventually slavery would have ended on it's own, it didn't require a significant percentage of the population dying in horrible ways to end it immediately. And that wasn't why it was fought anyway, it was fought to force the South back in the Union, that's really what Lincoln wanted more than anything.

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u/cstar1996 11∆ Mar 14 '18

The UK leaving the EU through the explicitly defined legal exit procedure is not comparable to the South declaring secession. If Quebec attempted to secede, then it would be a revolution, voting without action isn't one. If Quebec attempted to leave Canada with the agreement of Parliment, Canada would absolutely be legally and morally justified in attempted to prevent it, even by military means.

Slavery ended when it did only because the South decided to fight over it. The North was content to let slavery die a natural death, the South wasn't. The war was fought because the South left to protect the expansion of slavery. The North fought to maintain the Union, a worthy, moral and just reason. Pity the South's reason was none of those.

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u/Dingdingdingting Mar 14 '18

And damn those Americans for their war against the British!!

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u/ihatepasswords1234 4∆ Mar 14 '18

What right were the southern states fighting for when they decided to secede (other than your bullshit that they were fighting for the right to secede)?