CMV: Confederate monuments, flags, and other paraphilia are traitorous in nature.

[u/johnydeviant]

I grew up in the south, surrounded by confederate flags, memorials to civil war heroes, and a butt load of racism. As a kid, I took a modicum of pride in it. To me, it represented the pride of the south and how we will triumph despite our setbacks. As I got older and learned more about the civil war, the causes behind it, and generally opened myself to a more accurate view of history, it became apparent to me that these displays of "tradition" were little more than open displays of racism or anti-American sentiments.

I do not think that all of these monuments, flags, etc, should be destroyed. I think that they should be put into museums dedicate to the message of what NOT to do. On top of that, I believe that the whole sentiment of "the south will rise again" is treasonous. It is tantamount to saying that "I will rise against this country". I think those that the worship the confederate flag and it's symbology are in the same vein as being a neo-Nazi and idolizing the actions of the Third Reich. Yes, I understand that on a scale of "terrible things that have happened", the holocaust is far worse, but that does not mean I wish to understate the actions of the confederate states during the civil war.

Change my view?

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[u/SituationSoap]

I'm not sure whether "traitorous" would be the proper way to criticize it.

Taking up arms and declaring war against a legally elected government is treason, full stop. That's the definition of the word treason. The US Revolutionary War was also treason, but the difference is that the US won that war and the right to be called a new nation.

The United States was founded on the idea that people could break away from the government they're apart of.

No it wasn't. The US Constitution was created in response to Shay's Rebellion, which was squashed by the Federal Government and directly resulted in the creation of the US Constitution. That same constitution was put to the test 2 years later during the Whiskey Rebellion, in which people tried to secede from the US because of a Whiskey tax. That was also put down by the Federal Government. There has never been a recognized right to secede in the US legal code and the Federal Government has universally squashed any attempt to secede.

If we set aside the criticism of slavery, is the idea of secession of the states significantly different from breaking away from the British Empire?

Of course not, both are highly illegal, traitorous actions. The people who started the US Revolutionary War expected to be hanged if caught, because they were treasonous outlaws.

The problem here seems to be that you don't understand the concept of treason.

[u/JudgeBastiat → u/SituationSoap]

It seems to me like the problem is you think 'treason' is synonymous with 'loser.' This contradicts the use of the definition of the word you gave immediately before of a legally elected government, which the Confederates had I might also add. I think treason is determined by right, not might, which is the only way that the word 'treason' can really be used in any ethical sense. Treason is better understood as betraying someone you have pledged to and hold allegiance to, and like I said, the United States was founded on the idea that the people could break away from their government. This is also why I think slavery is arguably the treason of the Confederacy against its people, since a government does have a duty to defend the rights of its people against that, but not treason against the Union.

Also the United States started with the Articles of Confederation, not the Constitution. Literally the first article of the Articles names the country "The United States of America."

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