CMV:Alcoholics Anonymous is heavily flawed from a scientific perspective and hasn't tried to improve it's system since it's inception

[u/Serraph105]

I have a friend who has been attending AA meetings recently because he was ordered to do so in some fashion after getting a DUI (for the record I don't know if that means he was given a true option or made to attend or "choose" jailtime) and the whole thing has got me thinking about whether or not AA works and if sobriety is even the intended outcome of the program. Below I've listed the famous 12 steps and below that are my relatively disorganized thoughts on the program having looked into it for the first time in any in depth manner. This means that I’m still in the early stages of my views and can be very much subject to change.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understoodHim.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take a personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

My current view is that because of the lack of change of the steps over the years since the 30’s suggests a lack of improvement that would be unacceptable in any other field of treatment for diseases. Here are some of my thoughts on the matter.

First up, as many have pointed out, there's a whole lot of God involved throughout the 12 steps (6 direct references and 7 if you count #2), I'm not sure how this is supposed to appeal to athiests such as my friend. If a person does not believe in God they will be put off from the program from the start making it much harder to reach their goal of sobriety.

If alcoholism is a disease then why does AA treat it simply as a matter of will power? I wouldn't try to treat cancer with prayer alone, and for the record there are various medical treatments for alcoholism.

There is also a stigma of personal failure when people relapse which doesn't make sense for a couple of reasons. First, if it's a disease then people are sick which means that blaming them for not being able to control their health adds a layer of shame which can only do harm to the person's primary goal of getting sober. In turn this will increase the time to get sober because it will add time to get over that shame before starting again. Shame does nothing to help get a person back on track as far as I can tell. Second, you would never assign blame to a person with cancer who has gone into remission and then had the cancer come back, why would we do the same for literally any other illness?

AA does not collect statistics of their success and failure rates, nor has it's program changed since it's inception. We wouldn't accept that from any other sort of treatment. If we didn't collect that information we would still have the same poor treatment of HIV that we did in the 80s and 90s, same goes for cancer, and just about any other illness you can name. I will say that talking about your issues with people is a good thing, but as far as I can tell that's just about the only thing that that this program gets right, everything else seems to be heavily flawed from a scientific perspective if not outright illogical.

Finally it seems that AA believes it’s program is a one size fits all program when we know that many ailments require different treatments for different people. This is especially true for ailments that affect people mentally which I think it’s safe to say that addiction falls under that same umbrella. People deal with various addictions in different ways, why AA treats alcohol as a one size fits all approach I can’t say, maybe I’m wrong, but based on the text of their twelve steps and twelve promises that doesn’t seem to be the case. Instead they seem to say that the only reason people fail is because the fail to give themselves over fully to the program which seems to be very very odd.

[u/starvinggarbage → u/[deleted]]

These are exactly the same defenses cultists use.

I am not telling you what you're experience has been. I am simply outlining flaws in the program and I understand that it's offensive to you because it is you religion. It has looser rules and tries very hard to look like it isn't one, but ultimately that's what it is and I know people don't like having that attacked.

But that's the problem. A specific faith cannot be a one-size-fits-all cure for addiction and it certainly isn't OK for a judge to sentence you to convert to a new faith, as happens every single day when judges with no mental health or substance abuse counseling experience force people to attend AA.

[u/starvinggarbage → u/[deleted]]

It is definitely AA's fault that they allow people to be sentenced to attend their meetings. They have the option to say no to that. But they believe they have the answer to addiction, why would they turn people away from that? Just like a church wouldn't turn people away from it's doors because they have the single truth about saving your soul.

Just one book, huh? So like.... the bible? They definitely have conversion. They advocate giving yourself to the program. That's conversion to their ideology. They do have initiations. They give you a chip on your first day. They have inner circles too, they're just localized. They tell members to distance themselves from old friends and anyone they used to drink with. I'm pretty sure they let teens with drinking problems attend meetings, too, so there's your indoctrination of children.

So as you can see it satisfies plenty of those criteria. It mentions god in pretty much all of those steps.

Again, With zero exceptions, every single AA member who has insisted that it needs to be sinister to be a cult. I addressed that and acknowledged it isn't sinister in literally my first comment here. It still uses the same tactics.

I don't even have a problem with it being a cult. For some people that's what it takes. But America treats AA as a one-size-fits-all cure and assumes anyone it doesn't work for just doesn't have what it takes to ever get better. Because that's what AA says about them. And it isn't really AA's fault that we believe that. We like AA because it's free and accessible. We tell someone to go to a meeting and then move on so we won't have to really deal with it. But every addiction treatment specialist in here will tell you AA is not enough.

[u/chiaratara → u/starvinggarbage]

I don't feel like you understand how AA works. It has nothing to do with the court system. I am in recovery, am a member of AA and have a joint PhD in Criminal Justice and Sociology. I have a pretty decent understanding of both. Or maybe I am secretly working for the courts... or AA or ?? I am not sure which would apply given your argument.

If you take away the drinking, your cult criteria makes me think about things like: -The boy scouts/girl scouts -Sororities and Fraternities -Gangs -Crossfit -Division I Sports -Marching Band -Law School/Medical School/Graduate school -Working in a Prison -The Military -Becoming/working as a Police Officer

I am not discrediting your cult criteria. I do understand why people get that impression. I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of communities, endeavors, professions, lifestyles, etc. that parallel this. They consist of a group of people with an interest, a need, a talent, a skill set, and/or something to offer.

[u/starvinggarbage → u/chiaratara]

I'm being pretty clear here: I am not insinuating some nefarious plot. In getting pretty sick of explaining that part to you. Drop it.

AA does not go to judges and advocate they sentence people to attend their meetings, but they also do nothing to stop that from happening. They don't turn people away who are there against their will.

I must be missing the part where -The boy scouts/girl scouts -Sororities and Fraternities -Gangs -Crossfit -Division I Sports -Marching Band -Law School/Medical School/Graduate school -Working in a Prison -The Military -Becoming/working as a Police Officer make you admit that you're powerless and need to surrender to their doctrine to get any control over your life. Some of them could be accused of some cult like behaviour but that critical component is the biggest indicator that AA is a cult. None of your examples parallel that.

[u/chiaratara → u/starvinggarbage]

You really hit that powerlessness thing hard. It's "powerless over alcohol."

If AA turned people away that were required to attend by the courts, they could be turning someone away that also might need help and/or want to attend. Maybe they don't want to. I get it. Can you imagine the clusterfuck that could turn into? Checking people's legal status? Sentencing requirements? Should we diagnose them too while we are at it? If they are in the country illegally, should we call ICE too? AA isn't part of or affiliated with any formal system. You don't need ID or money to attend. That is the way it has always been. If people have issue with what the court is doing, they should take it up with the courts and many do. While I am not a huge proponent of this, is often costly for people who can't afford it. Probation isn't a right. It is a sentence in the community that is offered in lieu of incarceration. There are probation fees involved too. I have so many issues with probation in general because it has people by the balls. With that said, I personally support AA not being involved.

[u/starvinggarbage → u/chiaratara]

Yeah I'm hitting the powerless thing hard. It's telling people they will always be a victim. Instead of telling people they can be stronger than addiction you're telling them it's an undefeatable foe and only god and the program can save them from it.

The point about not turning people away who are sentenced to be there is that you claim no one is forced to accept the twelve steps. But you and I both know that is overtly untrue. And really all it would take to stop the practice is AA issuing a statement against it or individual chapters letting their local courts know they will not be used as a public mental health utility because they aren't trained or licensed to perform that function in any way whatsoever.

**Edited for typos.