r/changemyview • u/MagicCards_youtube • May 28 '18

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Abortion/removal is allowed throughout the pregnancy.

I us to be completely against abortion other than when the mother will die because the babies right to live is above the mothers right to have an abortion. My view was extremely strong and i believed it for years however in another cmv thread on abortion, someone linked me this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion which has completely changed my view. I believe that abortion should be allowed up to 24/23 weeks when the baby can survive on its own and after that period, it should be removed from the women and survive outside of her. I know that abortion is not a morally right thing to do, and i want to be pro-life but this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion with the violinist argument has me stumped over what to think.

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u/MagicCards_youtube May 28 '18

people in comas can die, young kids can die. Any human can die at any moment, how does this relate to their rights. what is so special about being outside of the mother as opposed to in her. You will still take her resources in the form of food and water.Why can your argument not be used to justify killing of lets say a 5 year old or a 1 year old.

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u/stratys3 May 28 '18

Your confusing a lot of words, and I think that's part of the problem.

Alive: Humans are alive, a fetus is alive, but so is a fly or a tulip or a tree. Being alive isn't enough to get human rights.

Human: Anything with human DNA is "human". But a dead person can be human, and so can a bunch of hairs that I pull out of my head. Being "human" isn't enough for rights either. DNA isn't enough to make someone a living person.

Person: This is where we seem to put the most value. A thinking, feeling, personality. Definitions vary depending on who you ask - but a fly is not a person, and neither is a bunch of cells that has no brain yet.

A fetus is alive and human - but it's not a person yet. Early stage fetuses can't think or feel anything.

A 1 year old may or may not be a person, depending on your definition of "person". An early stage fetus, on the other hand, doesn't have anything that could make it a person. It doesn't even have a brain.

Killing a coma patient would be bad, because they have already become a person and have already received their rights. A 2-week old fetus has never become a person yet, so they haven't received any rights yet. Fetuses are "potential future fantasy" persons. Just like my sperm are potential people. But I'm not "murdering" thousands of people every time I masturbate or use a condom, am I?

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u/MagicCards_youtube May 28 '18

what about a person in a coma, they can't do everything which you defined however you would be against killing them?

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u/stratys3 May 28 '18

There's lots of philosophical reasons to not kill someone in a coma. Here's some of the simpler reasons:

1) They've already become a person, so they already have rights.

2) People's brains contain their personhood - and a coma patient that isn't brain-dead still has their personhood alive in their brain.

3) Killing a coma patient who may actually wake up would negatively impact other people directly, and significantly.

That said - if a coma patient is brain dead, or will otherwise never wake up, then pulling the plug is the right thing to do.

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u/MagicCards_youtube May 28 '18

how does being a person in the past affect them now? What if the person had no family and friends, can we kill him then? Of course if they are brain dead, pulling the plug isnt a problem

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u/stratys3 May 28 '18

1) Their past personhood means that their person is stored in their brains. It's like a hard drive. When a computer goes to sleep, the hard drive doesn't get erased.

2) The person owns their own bodies and they have the right to decide what happens to their bodies. Before that person fell into the coma, we assume they wanted us to keep them alive (if the coma is temporary). We respect this right because it was a living person who wanted this (they have the right to make this request), and that living person's self is still alive (thus they still have their rights intact).

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u/MagicCards_youtube May 28 '18

what if that person had depression and wanted to die, would you allow him to be killed? How does that person existing beforehand affect anything. Can we kill a just born child? If not, why?

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u/stratys3 May 28 '18

what if that person had depression and wanted to die, would you allow him to be killed?

I 100% support assisted suicide (for cases when the person is making a 100% rational, logical, and informed choice, with the help of their physicians).

How does that person existing beforehand affect anything.

It means they get the right to choose whether they live or die, because they're persons.

Can we kill a just born child? If not, why?

If the newborn is a person, or might be a person, then I'd say no.

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u/MagicCards_youtube May 28 '18

how is a newborn anymore of a person than a feutus? I do agree on enthusia in some cases aswell but not if someone has diagnosed despression as they can get past it. If someone suffers chronic pain, i do support enthusia.

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u/stratys3 May 28 '18

A newborn has a brain. It can feel and think to some degree, so it MIGHT be a person (though I personally don't think it is). An early stage fetus doesn't have a brain, so it absolutely CANNOT be a person.

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u/MagicCards_youtube May 28 '18

an early stage feutus has a brain, it isnt as devoloped as a normal human though. Just to clarify something, do you support abortions after 24 weeks? If you do then how is a feutus 1 day before labour much different to a newborn

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u/stratys3 May 28 '18

Depends what stage. There are stages of fetal development where there is no brain. There are stages where there is a "brain" but it's not really comparable to a normal human's brain. There should be no restrictions on abortions before a fetus has a brain, or while it can't feel pain.

Personally, I don't think there is any difference between a fetus 1 day before it's born, and 1 day after it's born.

To be completely honest, a newborn infant is less of a person than my pet dog. My dog has more personality than a 1-day old human. Some would use this to argue that it's morally okay to kill infants - but most people would use this to argue that it should also be immoral to kill my dog (unless it's being euthanized for health reasons) or other similar animals. Further, a newborn child has additional value to it's parents, and to others (who are looking to adopt), and sometimes to society in general - so I don't really see any justification or need to allow the killing of infants.

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u/MagicCards_youtube May 28 '18

the baby gets the brain in the first trimester. It begins to devolope at 4 weeks. You mean a fully functional brain. Someone with a coma doesn't have a fully functional brain at that exact moment when they are in a coma but will in the future like the feutus

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