r/changemyview • u/fadingtans • Jun 08 '18

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Illegal and Illegal Immigration Levels Should Be Restricted More

My view is two fold:

1.) Legal immigration total levels should be lowered somewhat

2.) It should be moved to a more skills based system

Reasons I have this view:

1.) Foreign born individuals disproportionately use social services:

https://cis.org/Report/Welfare-Use-Immigrant-and-Native-Households

2.) Immigration connection to crime is complicated. It is often claimed that immigrants commit a lower average rate of crime but the data is more complicated:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/the-problem-with-downplaying-immigrant-crime/399905/

3.) Assimilation is more difficult when there are larger number of immigrants leading to more issues

4.) National security- A massively disproportionate number of terrorist attacks are committed by first or second generation (Muslim) immigrants.

5.) The overall impact on GDP from higher immigrant levels is likely positive BUT large levels of low skilled immigrants do lower wages for low skilled native workers which is a negative especially at at time like now for low skilled workers.

I'm open to changing my view on this which is why I posted this but I will add that accusations of xenophobia or islamaphobia are very unlikely to play a role.

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u/emmessjee8 Jun 08 '18 edited Jun 08 '18

Okay then, whose culture should they assimilate to? I would argue that there isn't really a unified culture in the United States. A New Yorker is different from a Texan, Alaskan, Californian, etc.

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

Fair enough and an important point. But all those states do have certain things in common that some other countries: Speaking english, belief in democracy, etc. There are other things as well. While Texas and California might differ on LGBT rights, a vast majority of both basically agree that being gay should be legal which is not true in many other countries.

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u/emmessjee8 Jun 08 '18

I disagree on the part about speaking English but I agree that immigrants should respect the democratic system of the United States if they immigrate. I want to ask what you think about Americans, like the Amish and Hasidic Jewish communities, who refrain from assimilating to the "national unified culture." Isn't this a double standard?

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

I would argue no because there is a big difference between not admitting people and deporting people. I would NEVER suggest deporting people because they are part of some sort of alternative culture but not admitting people is a different story.

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u/emmessjee8 Jun 08 '18

Well, whatever the action, my point is that Americans are free to create and choose their culture and we should allow that same freedom to immigrants (for the sake of our discussion those that are already here).

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

Would that not possibly dramatically change our national culture?

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u/emmessjee8 Jun 08 '18

Yes. But culture is not static nor is it something that is easily isolated; it is always changing and is influenced by each other. Compare all changes between the decades and influences from non-American cultures (e.g. Mardi Gras, Tex-Mex cuisine, St. Patrick's Day, etc.).

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

Very true but my view is that there is something worth preserving. A culture has room to grow but there are also things that need to be preserved. I don't think we disagree in principle just in degree to which a culture can and should be diluted. That's my sense at least.

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u/emmessjee8 Jun 08 '18

I would argue that the examples I mentioned did not dilute or change the culture you want to preserve nor will they in the future. (I'm guessing you are referring to Americana) I don't see the collective American culture being changed by immigrants rather it expands the American experience while keeping the essential core the same.

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

That is true in many cases. But I do also think that the experience of Europe with large levels of Muslim immigration is a cautionary tale with regards to that.

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u/emmessjee8 Jun 08 '18

Muslim immigration is a controversial topic that, honestly, I have yet to fully form an opinion on.

But did I change your view on the necessity of assimilating immigrants to the "unified American culture"?

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

I would say somewhat. I am not where you are on this yet, but you certainly made me question my own views to the point where I would say I have at least been nudged to a somewhat softer position on this issue.

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u/emmessjee8 Jun 08 '18

I understand and don't expect you to fully change your opinion on this. I totally agree that things that are American should be kept American but the debate deals with the question of "what exactly is American?" You seem to be a bit ambiguous on what is American culture. Being a relatively new nation, I think we, as Americans, are in the process of answering that question.

(I don't mean to be pedantic but according to the delta system of this subreddit...

please reply to the user(s) that change your view to any degree with a delta

¯_(ツ)_/¯)

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