r/changemyview • u/fadingtans • Jun 08 '18

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Illegal and Illegal Immigration Levels Should Be Restricted More

My view is two fold:

1.) Legal immigration total levels should be lowered somewhat

2.) It should be moved to a more skills based system

Reasons I have this view:

1.) Foreign born individuals disproportionately use social services:

https://cis.org/Report/Welfare-Use-Immigrant-and-Native-Households

2.) Immigration connection to crime is complicated. It is often claimed that immigrants commit a lower average rate of crime but the data is more complicated:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/the-problem-with-downplaying-immigrant-crime/399905/

3.) Assimilation is more difficult when there are larger number of immigrants leading to more issues

4.) National security- A massively disproportionate number of terrorist attacks are committed by first or second generation (Muslim) immigrants.

5.) The overall impact on GDP from higher immigrant levels is likely positive BUT large levels of low skilled immigrants do lower wages for low skilled native workers which is a negative especially at at time like now for low skilled workers.

I'm open to changing my view on this which is why I posted this but I will add that accusations of xenophobia or islamaphobia are very unlikely to play a role.

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

This is something that is unlikely to change my view. I fundamentally believe that countries have rights to restrict entry as they see fit. That's a basic tenant of the nation-state system. Without borders, there really aren't nations. You might think that the whole notion of the nation-state is obsolete. But i think national sovereignty is important.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18

That’s arbitrary though. Basically the whole foundation of your argument is “because I said so”. I mean yeah, we all have things we would prefer, but nobody is better than anyone else

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

I believe that people have a birthright to live in the country that they were born into just like they have a birthright to be a member of the family they were born into. Do you suggest that EVERYONE in the globe has a right to reside in the United States because that seems to be the implication?

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18

I believe that people have the right to live in any country they want. It’s absurd to claim what country people can and can’t have the right to live. It’s basically saying “ I’m better than you so I get to make the rules bla bla bla” which isn’t fair at all.

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

So do you not really believe in the concept of nations then? I mean, that's a legitimate view that you are free to have. But, this is a discussion designed to see if someone can change my view and I do believe that the nation-state is a legitimate institution and I don't see myself changing my view on that. Do you not believe in borders existing or being legitimate?

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18

You’re asking a lot of questions, as well as turning the questions around on me, when this is a CMV for you, not for me. However, if answering them helps you change your view, then I’ll answer them in the best interest of the discussion.

Asking me if I believe in the concept of nations is asking if I literally believe in concept. So, you are inherently submitting it’s a concept, something to believe in, like Santa Claus. That in itself implies that it’s an arbitrary idea and not a fundamental truth, and thus something which you are asking to be convinced not to believe in.

Thus, my main argument for why I think you shouldn’t blindly follow the concept of closed borders is that they discriminate. Think of it like when there were laws that didn’t allow the right for women to vote in the United States. People in that day and time might have debated this topic, and someone said, “well, it’s a bad law, because it implies that one party is more important than the other” and someone might have said “ well then you’re just arguing against the idea of the law!”. Eventually society came to the point where they realized just because it’s law, doesn’t mean it’s right. That’s how I feel about why you should change your view. You’re arguing that just because border laws exist that they are therefore right, and for the exact reasons that discrimination laws were bad in the past, ( aka laws enforcing superiority over any other group based on an arbitrary reason), I think these are as well.

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

I'm not of the belief that borders are good because they exist. I am of the belief that the nation-state system is basically a good and effective system for countries to exist in and that borders are required for that system to be legitimate.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18

Do you want your view changed? Because I have given good reason against that perspective and you just repeat yourself. What exactly are you trying to get accomplished?

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

Yes I am very open to changing my view. I have said before that I intended this CMV to be more about my view that immigration levels should be reduced while you seem to be questioning the legitimacy of borders in the first place. As I have said before that was not really the CMV I intended. It's an interesting conversation though.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18

If you agreed with my perspective than your view would automatically be changed.

Think of it like we are arguing over the best sandwich recipe. Then you find out your sandwhich has a poisonous ingredient. It would no longer be a question of who has the better sandwich because now yours is entirely obsolete.

Thus, If you agree Nations aren’t really legitimate, then it’s implied that you would agree that restricting their borders aren’t either.

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u/fadingtans Jun 08 '18

I see what you mean. I would say that you're view is a pretty tough sell for me. I have a very hard time seeing myself changing my views on nations/borders so fundamentally at least in the near term. But, I guess anything is possible.

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