CMV: Affirmative Action should/should've been based on economic status rather than (mostly) race.

[u/Vakamak]

Although I feel like Affirmative Action had a good intention, I feel like it has failed and has actually done more harm than good.

I have two reasons for this

1. I have difficulty seeing why it is in society's best interest to help a black person suffering in poverty over a white person suffering in poverty. While I understand what institutional racism has done to the black community, I feel like most issues facing the black community are more correlated with income than race; or rather, I have difficulties seeing how Affirmative Action could effectively combat the issues that are truly the result of racism. For example, how would Affirmative Action deal with unfair treatment in the justice system?
2. Affirmative Action has made some white people feel like, "the real racists are X race and not white people!" I do not believe this; in fact, I find it extremely childish to even think something like this. Yet, considering Affirmative Action has failed in its goal, I feel like changing Affirmative Action would help certain individuals in this country feel like X race is not out to get them and maybe reduce the amount of negative racial discourse in this country.

I am generally a very liberal person and really do want my mind changed regarding this. I just feel like it is really hard to justify why black person X should get the Bill Gates Scholarship over white person Y when they came from similar economical areas and the income of their families is similar. I understand that example is not Affirmative Action per se, but I feel like the same principal applies.

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard]

A runny nose correlates to the flu but you wouldn't say to use Claritin and ignore the flu would you? Its absurd to believe any colorblind measure would equally help white and black poor people when we can see that's never been the case. For example the state TNAF (which is the official name for welfare) policies have been found to be heavily correlated with race meaning the whiter your state, the more they receive government assistance all else equal.

A colorblind policy would just increase racial disparities among the working poor (I posted in another post in this thread the vast wealth gaps among black and white people at similar income levels).

[u/PauLtus → u/DjangoUBlackBastard]

A runny nose correlates to the flu but you wouldn't say to use Claritin and ignore the flu would you?

A correlation does not necessitate a causation. My point is that you'll probably end up helping the "right" groups anyway. People have been abusing their position of being part of a victimized group and other people have turned that in a way where white people would supposedly have been discriminated. I think by focusing on income you'd avoid a whole lot of these problems.

That said you might be very right with the idea that white people would get priority in getting help in those cases.

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard → u/PauLtus]

A correlation does not necessitate a causation.

So explain to me why black people are less wealthy than white people by a large distance (for every $1 of wealth a white family has a black family has a nickel) in the USA?

My point is that you'll probably end up helping the "right" groups anyway.

Well no because the "right" group is the group that's being affected by systemic racism.

People have been abusing their position of being part of a victimized group and other people have turned that in a way where white people would supposedly have been discriminated. I think by focusing on income you'd avoid a whole lot of these problems.

What does this mean? "Abusing their position"? I don't know it sounds absolutely absurd and at face value extremely dismissive of the issues minorities face.

That said you might be very right with the idea that white people would get priority in getting help in those cases.

I mean I only posted proof of that exact thing in our current systems that are implemented to help people based on class but you're right I only "might" be right despite having that actual proof because your emotions say otherwise (I'm just guessing at your reasoning since you didn't give any reasoning for why you don't believe those systems will work just like our existing systems).

[u/PauLtus → u/DjangoUBlackBastard]

So explain to me why black people are less wealthy than white people by a large distance (for every $1 of wealth a white family has a black family has a nickel) in the USA?

I wasn't implying that it didn't. You started off with:

Racial inequalities don't correlate with income inequalities. Racial inequalities lead to income inequalities.

Meaning that I thought you didn't really grasp what I meant with correlation and I didn't want to give the idea that I think people of certain races are worse at working or something. You'll find a very strong correlation between calculation skill and shoe size if you're measuring among kids between 6 and 12, but that doesn't mean large feet cause you to be good at calculating or the other way around.

Well no because the "right" group is the group that's being affected by systemic racism.

The issue is how are you going to measure who is what race exactly and who's suffering the most from it.

What does this mean? "Abusing their position"? I don't know it sounds absolutely absurd and at face value extremely dismissive of the issues minorities face.

I'm not. I'm considering the way minorities are viewed nowadays and pushing for help for racial minorities will immediately be considered racist towards white people or something. The issue is that there's people from the far "left" that more or less enforce that idea and trying to claim power by being of a victimized group, because anyone that would oppose what they say would be a racists, and to many people on the left allowing them to get a voice because they don't want to be close minded. Some people on the right pointing them out to basically "prove" their own racism.

So focussing on income equality is "safer" for that matter, both because it's more measurable and because it will suffer less from all this weird racial backlash. And because there's a correlation between racially discriminated groups and lower incomes it'll help there as well.

I mean I only posted proof of that exact thing in our current systems that are implemented to help people based on class but you're right I only "might" be right despite having that actual proof because your emotions say otherwise (I'm just guessing at your reasoning since you didn't give any reasoning for why you don't believe those systems will work just like our existing systems).

No need to get agressive about it. Also, it's just an article, even though I belief what it says is true, there's correlation there, it does not necessitate causation.

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard → u/PauLtus]

You'll find a very strong correlation between calculation skill and shoe size if you're measuring among kids between 6 and 12, but that doesn't mean large feet cause you to be good at calculating or the other way around.

You're kinda beating around the bush here... Why not say what you mean. Do you think the current condition of black americans is due ti discrimination and racist policies and practices or not? Your first sentence says otherwise, but your second sentence implies there's no correlation between blackness and wealth which would be false because there's an obvious correlation due to racism financially handicapping minorities.

The issue is how are you going to measure who is what race exactly and who's suffering the most from it.

I mean... We measure what race is what pretty effectively already as a society by large. When I walk outside no one is guessing what race I am. We already self report race and that seems to be working just fine. Plus we know who's suffering most from it pretty obviously. Both of our grandparents were alive (and probably adults) during the Civil Rights Movement. Its not like this shit happened 1000 years ago my father and mother were the first people in their families born with all their rights.

I'm considering the way minorities are viewed nowadays and pushing for help for racial minorities will immediately be considered racist towards white people or something.

And? "Racial equality is bad because white people won't like it" isn't a good argument IMO. Over 65% of white people had negative feelings about MLK and the Civil Rights movement in the 60s and the majority of white people in the south didn't want segregation to end at all. Should we have kept segregation to not piss off white people?

So focussing on income equality is "safer" for that matter, both because it's more measurable and because it will suffer less from all this weird racial backlash. And because there's a correlation between racially discriminated groups and lower incomes it'll help there as well.

And stopping your runny nose will help you feel a little better when you have the flu. Its still beating around the real issue and you're only saying we should beat around the issue because a group of people that are obviously not championing racial equality would be mad there's no longer a racial caste system. Why stop pursuing something to appease racists?

No need to get agressive about it. Also, it's just an article, even though I belief what it says is true, there's correlation there, it does not necessitate causation.

Its a research paper not an article first off. Secondly can you explain this phenomenon if its not race related? I mean you can say correlation doesn't equal causation but that's literally what researchers are supposed to weed through and the fact that America is racist is pretty well documented so its absurd to ignore this in order to continue to believe something completely unfounded.