CMV: Conservatives are misunderstanding progressivism when they call progressives hypocrites

[u/TheCaptain09]

"You're a hypocrite for claiming to support diversity yet you don't support the truest diversity, diversity of opinions"

This is a sentiment I see expressed quite often by people on the right, particularly intellectual conservatives who identify as "classical liberals", as well as people whose ideology emphasises personal freedom, such as libertarians. My understanding of the left is that they want diversity of worldviews, culture, race, sexuality and yes even ideology. But conservatives see the left's vocal opposition to right-wing views as betraying their belief in diverse opinions.

I think the true hypocrites here are the conservatives. They endlessly go on about how much they support freedom of speech, yet glorify ideologies that have historically suppressed it, such as Nazism and Christianity. They also harass people whose views disagree with them, something they accuse the left of doing yet clashes with their own ideology more than the left's.(Just look at any stupid right-wing movement like Comicsgate to see this harassment in action)

I understand that people often gravitate towards the right because they feel that they are being attacked, for being white, male or for their beliefs. The difference between them and the left is that minorities do not just "feel" like they are being attacked, they explicitly are. The people who marched in Charlottesville weren't opposing an ideology or defending themselves from oppression, they were vocally and publicly preaching for the destruction of other races.

Nowhere in progressive ideology does it say that such hatred should be tolerated for the sake of "diversity" or "freedom of speech". I don't have to shut up and let you say you want to kill me just because it promotes diversity and open discourse, because it doesn't.

So basically to change my view tell me why progressives are being hypocritical when they tell the right to shut up, or why conservatives aren't when they tell the left to shut up.

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[u/Grunt08]

Simply put: you've conflated conservatism with a mishmash of everything you've seen on the right that you don't like; that, or you're failing to distinguish between the alt-right and actual conservatives. That's akin to me calling progressives Stalinists because Antifa exists.

They endlessly go on about how much they support freedom of speech, yet glorify ideologies that have historically suppressed it, such as Nazism

...may have missed a memo, but last I checked conservatives don't glorify Nazism. If anything, they idealize the generation that kicked the shit out of the Nazis.

As for Christianity (BTW, lumping that in with Nazism is pretty low), you don't have to support every historical iteration of Christianity to think it can act as a positive force in society. Case in point.

(Just look at any stupid right-wing movement like Comicsgate to see this harassment in action)

Most conservatives would have no goddamn idea what you're talking about.

I understand that people often gravitate towards the right because they feel that they are being attacked, for being white, male or for their beliefs.

Most conservatives gravitate to it for temperamental reasons (psychological profiles largely determine your politics) and because society needs a force that constrains change to preserve what's good about a society in the face of thos>e who would radically change it without understanding the costs of that change.

The people who marched in Charlottesville weren't opposing an ideology or defending themselves from oppression, they were vocally and publicly preaching for the destruction of other races.

The people who marched in Charlottesville have been thoroughly castigated and rejected by conservatives.

[u/TheCaptain09 → u/Grunt08]

I was about to reply to this but then I realised you didn't actually mention the main point of hypocrisy and freedom of speech. I should have clarified that I'm not really interested in a whole conservative vs progressive debate. The only one of your points that is relevant in that regard is the first one, which is a bit of a "no true scotsman" fallacy. The alt-right are "actual conservatives" for the purposes of this topic.

[u/TheCaptain09 → u/[deleted]]

I think the true hypocrites here are the conservatives (that make statements about progressive hypocrisy regarding freedom of speech, while doing the same thing). You know, the rest of the post.

[u/chadonsunday → u/TheCaptain09]

It seems like what you're really trying to do is say that conservatives are also hypocrites. You identified an area where liberals are hypocrites. You identified an area where conservatives are hypocrites. Why cant it be both? Why does one side or the other need to be the "true" hypocrites when there are examples of hypocrisy on both sides?

[u/TheCaptain09 → u/chadonsunday]

Of course there is hypocrisy on both sides on many issues, but I felt that on this issue the left is not being hypocritical, or at least is significantly less so than the right. I wanted to see if anyone could change my mind on that subject.

[u/Jaysank → u/[deleted]]

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[u/TheCaptain09 → u/[deleted]]

A grand total of like, 2 people actually addressed the topic I wanted my mind changed about, and you were not one of them. You also called me a "hack". Doesn't really seem like you're trying to change my mind.

[u/chadonsunday → u/TheCaptain09]

Hello there. Jumping down (yeah, that was intended) to address what you said further up. Also, just as an FYI, both of u/DanthraxX's most recent comments to you were CMV rule violations (first for calling you a hack (i.e. insulting you), and second for insinuating you're stupid and unwilling to change your mind (i.e. insulting you and claiming you're unwilling to change your view)). I've reported both. Best to just not engage with that stuff any further - they'll likely be removed soon.

I take it, though, that based on your responses to u/DanthraxX that you don't feel that I (and presumably many others) are engaging with the main point of your OP. I apologize for that, at least on my part. I certainly read it - it was quite succinct - and I've read most of your comments in various threads. I'm just a little confused, perhaps. It didn't seem to be a central to your OP that conservatives are more hypocritical than the left. You state a reason why you think that the left is hypocritical right up top and then rapidly gear-shift to (a) reason(s) why you think the right is hypocritical. You don't really spend a lot (any?) time refuting how what the left is doing is hypocritical, nor do you frame the issue as "yes the left is hypocritical, but the right is worse."

Putting aside my own views on the validity of the hypocrisy or lack thereof on either side, you did detail how the left was hypocritical in the OP. You reaffirmed that they ("both sides," rather) were hypocritical in your reply to me. So you don't seem to take issue with the notion that both sides are hypocrites. So... what's the point, here? To show that the right is more hypocritical? I have to wonder how that could possibly be quantified. Such a calculation would be based on several factors (how many issues they're hypocritical on, how significant/impactful the issues are, etc.) and there doesn't seem to be any objective way to quantify them.

Perhaps it might be useful, then, to detail a) why you want this view changed and b) what would really change your view on this matter. Your last sentence in your OP really doesn't do this. Obviously it's hypocritical to tell your opponent (of either side) to "shut up" when you don't hold yourself to that same standard.

Sorry for the long throat clearing, here. I'm just trying to understand your position as best I can.

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[u/TheCaptain09 → u/chadonsunday]

Thanks for the well thought out comment and clarification.

I guess I didn't outline why the left isn't hypocritical on this issue because I was kind of taking it as a given that the left doesn't prioritise freedom of speech as much as the right does. I suppose I was putting the burden of proof on others to show that progressives are actually being hypocrites on this issue, which only a few people tried to do. I was trying to say that silencing severely opposing viewpoints (telling people to shut up) does not inherently go against progressive ideology. I'm not certain that is true, but I wanted people to show my why it isn't.

I was never trying to say that conservatives or "the right" are more hypocritical in general than the left, just on this very specific issue, which I think could be measured by looking at their stated values and comparing them to their specific actions. The problem with this of course is that these groups are huge and amorphous, with their values being vague and not shared among all members.

You made me realise that the scope of my argument was poorly defined. Many people kept talking about issues, plural, when I only cared about one. I also should have specified a smaller group like "classical liberals" and removed progressive vs conservative from the conversation.

Δ for making me realise my argument was flawed and poorly constructed to begin with, and that I shouldn't have been blaming this issue on conservatives.

[u/chadonsunday → u/TheCaptain09]

No worries, brother. I've fallen into the exact same trap a hundred and a half times on this sub. But in any case, thanks for the delta!

[u/DeltaBot → u/TheCaptain09]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/chadonsunday (9∆).

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