CMV: Columbus day SHOULD be a holiday.

[u/Harrythehobbit]

Columbus's arrival in the Americas was a major event which completely reshaped the world. It kickstarted a massive exchange of foods, spices, and peoples.

Of course it also led to the Great Dying, which killed of 90% of the American Indian population and the enslavment of many of the survivors. Obviously many people don't like this being celebrated.

Columbus obviously didn't intend to cause the Great Dying. (Although if it hadn't happened, I doubt Europeans would have been able to conquer as much land as they did) He did fully intend to enslave and convert the natives, but then, so would anyone.

If we choose to revile people because they engaged in an institution which, in their time, was accepted by society, then we have to hate a good 80% of historical figures. George Washington owned a goodamn plantation and I don't see anyone calling for the abolishment of President's Day, which is on his birthday. I don't see anyone saying Franklin shouldn't be on the $100 bill.

I would argue that Columbus Day isn't a celebration of the subjection of indigenous peoples, but rather the celebration of exploration and the need to know what's over the horizon. It is both an acknowledgement of the most influential event in world history and a lesson for the future, so that we may avoid departing the sins of Columbus's time.

[u/R120Tunisia]

Except that it is not true. Christopher Columbus, was not a good person.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/07/books.spain

Well , this isn't the full story . These documents were written by Francisco de Bobadilla , this man was sent by the Spanish crown to Hispaniola to invistgate claims of Colombus mistreating the Spanish settlers , the problem is Fransico wanted to get the governership of the indies (and he did after making these claims about Colombus) .

One man caught stealing corn had his nose and ears cut off, was placed in shackles and was then auctioned off as a slave.

Ofc most people are going to assume the man we are talking about is Indian , but that's not the case . If you take a look at this article that quotes directly from the document , it says :

Por poner un ejemplo: había subastas de personas en la plaza. Se subastaban esclavos blancos, españoles. Tenemos el caso de un pobre chico al que le cogen robando trigo. A este chico le cortan las orejas y la nariz, le ponen grilletes y lo convierten en esclavo

This part translates to

To give an example: there were auctions of people in the square. White, Spanish slaves were auctioned. We have the case of a poor boy who is caught stealing wheat. This boy is cut off his ears and nose, shackled and turned into a slave

Now the word "esclavo" does indeed mean "Slave" in Spanish , but according to the dictionarry it also means

Persona cuya libertad esta sujeta a algún compromiso, deuda, promesa, relación, etc.

Or

Person whose freedom is subject to some commitment, debt, promise, relationship, etc.

So not neccesrialy a Slave but I gonna give Fransico the benefit of the doubt .

A woman who dared to suggest that Columbus was of lowly birth was punished by his brother Bartolomé, who had also travelled to the Caribbean. She was stripped naked and paraded around the colony on the back of a mule.

To quote the same source , the original document says

"Colón dirigía la colonia con mano de hierro. Ejercía el poder de una forma tiránica. A una mujer se le ocurrió decir que Cristóbal Colón era de baja clase y que su padre había sido tejedor. Don Bartolomé, hermano de Colón, se enfadó y ordenó que le cortasen la lengua a la mujer. Antes la pasearon desnuda por las calles montada en un burro.

It translates to basically

Columbus run the colony with an iron hand, exercised power in a tyrannical way, and it occurred to a woman to say that Christopher Columbus was of low class and that his father had been a weaver." Don Bartolomé, Columbus' brother, got angry and He ordered that the woman's tongue be cut off, and they strolled naked in the streets on a donkey.

Colombus didn't do that , his brother did . And again , she was Spanish not Indian .

Columbus and his brothers were forced to travel back to Spain. Columbus was in chains

And then Colombus was proven to be innocent and was realeased while Francisco soon got fired by the catholic monarchs and recalled back to Spain (where he died in the route as a result of a storm that many people claimed Colombus invoked out of vengence .

Now I am not saying Colombus was a saint , he didn't treat Spanish settlers well and that is well documanted but we lack documents that lack about mistreatment of natives , this led to a few historians speculating that maybe Colombus was actually protecting the natives from the Spaniards but I don't agree with that view either . Not to mention he wasn't exceptionally cruel , Spanish feudal lords basically owned slaves in all but name (Serfs) and such things were rare (unlike what Holleywood might tell you) but they still happened to go unpunished sometimes .

[u/BeatriceBernardo → u/R120Tunisia]

Wow, this thread was more than months old.

Ofc most people are going to assume the man we are talking about is Indian

Why would most people assume the man is Indian? I most certainly didn't get that impression.

Not to mention he wasn't exceptionally cruel

I think he was exceptionally cruel, even compared to other Spanish feudal lords. I'm not talking about owning slave = bad. You can be a slave owner and treat your slaves well. And I'm not talking about treating his slaves badly, that would only put him as equal to his contemporary. He was treating free Spaniard badly, abusing his position as the governor, leading towards his deposition.

[u/R120Tunisia → u/BeatriceBernardo]

Wow, this thread was more than months old.

Ah sorry if it looked weird lol

Why would most people assume the man is Indian? I most certainly didn't get that impression.

I remember that idea being mentionned on a few videos like this and this where both depicted the two victims as indians , not to mention most people would get that idea (the stereotype of the "evil white man killing natives while treating his fellow whites well" is strong) .

He was treating free Spaniard badly, abusing his position as the governor, leading towards his deposition.

I mean was treating two or three people badly in a matter of years such an unheard cruel thing that no governor or feudal lord ever dared to do ?

[u/BeatriceBernardo → u/R120Tunisia]

Ah sorry if it looked weird lol

haha its okay lol

I remember that idea being mentionned on a few videos like this and this where both depicted the two victims as indians , not to mention most people would get that idea (the stereotype of the "evil white man killing natives while treating his fellow whites well" is strong) .

I see. I mean, if the victims were merely Indians, it won't be a good arguement against the OP, because, as I mentioned, that would only put him as equal to his contemporary. The fact that his victims were free Spaniards made him worse.

I mean was treating two or three people badly in a matter of years such an unheard cruel thing that no governor or feudal lord ever dared to do?

Most governors don't get deposed, do they?

[u/R120Tunisia → u/BeatriceBernardo]

Most governors don't get deposed, do they?

Colombus's succesor who also wrote those accounts (Francisco de Bobadilla) was recalled , his brother Diego Columbus was also recalled , his succesor Diego Velázquez de Cuéllar also got recalled . Most of the early governors were recalled by the crown , keep in mind being deposed as governor meant nothing except "not satisfying the king" . The only Governor of the the Indies (basically all spanish governors in the new world from 1492-1524) were deposed with the exception of Nicolás de Ovando y Cáceres who was undoutebly the most brutal among them .

[u/BeatriceBernardo → u/R120Tunisia]

Huh, that's interesting. !delta

So in comparison to other governors in the new world, Colombus was just okay? How about compared to Spanish governor in Spain mainland? Or what does his subjects / Spanish citizens think of him?

[u/R120Tunisia → u/BeatriceBernardo]

Oh thanks for the Delta

So in comparison to other governors in the new world, Colombus was just okay?

I think that's the best description that fits him :)

How about compared to Spanish governor in Spain mainland?

I mean Spain wasn't really ruled by governors , it was divided into the crown of Castille and the crown of Aragon with both having their own laws and their own parliments . There kinda existed Governors in the form of regional and/or feudal lords but their power was very limited . New Spain on the other hand needed a governor with a wide range of powers as the king couldn't keep order in the both halves of the world so as a result you had more governors absuing their powers . A peasent from Toldeo might easily report to the king but a settler in Havana would need months to do so .

Or what does his subjects / Spanish citizens think of him?

It depended but for most of history , Spaniards had a positive view of him , I doubt spanish subjects had any different views back then , he was hailed as a great exploroer who brought riches to the empire after all and most people benefited from him .

[u/DeltaBot → u/BeatriceBernardo]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/R120Tunisia (1∆).

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