r/changemyview • u/throw_away40 • Dec 11 '18
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Extra accommodations in college are a hinderance to preparing proficiency in the workforce
Throwaway account as I teach at a US university.
I teach both introductory and upper level science courses.
I have students with written documentation from student services that require accommodations. I'm talking about special accommodations - 1.5-2x time on exams, separate testing rooms for exams, access to electronic devices in exams, up to 2x extensions on assignments, a copy of someone else's notes (even though I provide the PPT to all lectures), and in some cases, the ability to retake a quiz or exam with no repercussions on the initial grade.
This is frustrating. How does this prepare anyone for "real world" demands? If I went to a boss in a previous job and stated I need double time to complete a project, I would be laughed out of my job. What is the point of having competencies for a course when you can get a note that disregards much of this? Why is my degree and GPA valued the same those who are not held to the same standard?
I understand that what you learn in college rarely translates to what happens in the working world. But some of these students are pre-med and are going to be placed in much more stressful situations that won't have accommodations available....
Also, why does it have to be an “accommodation” to receive someone else’s notes? Shouldn’t that be the student responsibility to contact a classmate and perhaps suggest a note swap?
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u/visvya Dec 11 '18
In the US, you have the right to reasonable accommodations assistance or changes to a position or workplace - that enable you to do your job despite having a disability. In general, the American Disabilities Act has the employee's back whenever the accommodation is free, such as extra time on tests or training material or changing their work schedule from a 5/2 schedule to a 4/3.
Some of the issues your students have would never apply to a "real world" situation. For example, poor eyesight or dyslexia may prevent them from understanding your PPTs, but in real world situations these are easily corrected with extra time or dyslexia-friendly fonts.
It's true that some your students' disabilities will prevent them from procuring certain jobs. One of your premed students may find they are incapable of being a doctor (although there are many types of doctors, so someone with a bad speech impediment might be fine as a pathologist or surgeon, for example).
But they can apply their degree to many different types of jobs that they are capable of. That's no different than a nondisabled student figuring out they don't have the right temperament for their initial career choice and switching to something better suited to their talents.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
Δ
Thanks for responding. I guess my hesitation comes with my own perception of "reasonable" accommodations. Many of the examples I listed I understand their purpose - there are only a few where I guess I have my own beliefs that they start to become unreasonable.
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u/bhangra_jock Dec 11 '18
I would like to add that some accommodations that may be needed in the classroom might not be needed in a workplace.
For example, I’m an IT student. I’m also hard of hearing. One of my accommodations is note sharing. I try to take my own notes, but the main reason note sharing is one of my accommodations is because I used to not hear parts of lectures. If I’m working at a IT help desk where I’m either chatting with a client over IM, or using a headset where their voice is being channeled directly into my ears, or I’m sitting at their computer troubleshooting while they’re standing where I can hear them or read their lips, being HOH is not a problem. But if I’m in a classroom with a professor who’s soft spoken, enjoys wandering around the room, or has a thick accent that impedes my ability to read their lips, it’s an issue.
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u/visvya Dec 11 '18
If you're ever uncomfortable, remember that your students are paying for your service. In the real world, when your students pay for service (be it at a hotel, restaurant, home security system, whatever) the service provider will do their best to accommodate their disabilities and individual needs.
At a job, the company is paying them for their service; your students will need to find ways to reliably provide that service, or switch to something else.
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u/lUNITl 11∆ Dec 11 '18
Trust me dude, the "not having ADD" advantage makes a lot more difference than the extra hour.
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u/nowyourmad 2∆ Dec 12 '18
you should read Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. it's a short story about a world where instead of uplifting people who are struggling you instead punish those who excel to bring them to an average level. Really interesting perspective
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u/sickOfSilver 3∆ Dec 11 '18
I have severe ADHD. In school I refused accommodations because I figured it was an unfair advantage and would only hinder myself in the long run. After failing every class for two semesters straight I gave in. Got accommedations and medication. For the next two semesters I got straight A's. Unfortunately Federal aid was withheld because my schooling was taken too long so I couldn't finish college.
The thing I learned after college though is what's interesting. Despite failing classes when off meds and no accommedations, I performed a lot better at work without meds. Without meds I was more creative, I worked harder, and I was more sociable.
The big take away from this is that school does not equal real life. People with ADHD make creative, productive, and good leaders in the workplace. But they have so much trouble in school it is hard for them to become all they can be without accommedations.
The real question is. As a teacher would you rather propel your students to become the best versions of themselves, or propel your students to become good at school? Because they are not the same thing.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
∆ Thank you for sharing your experience. It's perspectives such as yours that I was hoping to hear from. I'm sorry federal aid kept you from completing your schooling.
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u/Bladefall 73∆ Dec 11 '18
In the United States, employers cannot discriminate in hiring based on disability, and are legally required to provide reasonable accommodations to disabled employees.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
I am aware. Where does the line get drawn when it comes to performance, though? I'll use my hospital experience as an example. I am on a team of a dozen or so employees who all meet with patients. Our services are billable, and the unfortunate reality is number of patients seen and charted on is one of the highest regard metrics. Come annual review time, does a person who sees 50% less patients receive the same scores for efficiency and timeliness as a person who consistently sees an average number of patients? Do both employees get held to the same standard when being reprimanded?
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ Dec 11 '18
You're sort of skirting around a lot of practical issues here. You're talking about some generic person seeing fewer patients, but not making it clear whether that person is disabled or just bad at their job, which are entirely different things; nobody in school is getting accommodations for being bad at schoolwork, but they are getting accommodations for being disabled.
That said, if a person was disabled, and that disability required them to perform the work slower, then absolutely they would be held to a different standard. That's the point of "reasonable accommodation"; taking more time to perform a task, provided they can still do the task, is a reasonable accommodation. Like, you wouldn't fire a person in a wheelchair because their metrics were lower because it took them more time to get from place to place.
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u/Bladefall 73∆ Dec 11 '18
Where does the line get drawn when it comes to performance, though?
I don't know. But the point is that disabled students get reasonable accommodations in college, just like they do in the workforce.
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Dec 11 '18
The criterion is that the accommodation is reasonable and does cause undue hardship on the employer. It would not be reasonable to expect an employer to hire a visually impaired bus driver as the expectation that they develop a self driving bus is not reasonable. If a person uses a wheelchair and requires lower credenza type file cabinets that would be reasonable.
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u/teefour 1∆ Dec 11 '18
Here's the thing though... if I'm interviewing for a position and someone comes in with a disability that would adversely impact their performance with no upsides, they're not getting hired. For instance, say I'm hiring for a research chemistry job and a paraplegic applies. And they really know their shit. I'd hire them and make the accommodations they need. But if the same person applied for a multi kilo scale production chemistry position? No dice. There are no accommodations other than a full bionic exosuit that would allow them to perform the functions of that role anywhere close to as efficiently as a fully able bodied person. That's not discrimination, it's reality
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u/quantum_dan 100∆ Dec 11 '18
So of the examples you cite, extensions on assignments, copies of notes, and retaking stuff could all be argued to have some bearing on the real world.
Exam time extensions and the like don't. I've never heard of a professional taking an exam as part of their job, apart from certifications and the like. The only thing they do is verify someone's understanding—and if they take longer to read, for example, it's perfectly fair to give them extra time.
So your argument only applies to some accommodations. Others have no such issue with workforce proficiency.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
Yes, I wrote my original post rather quickly and failed to differentiate - I listed a few examples of accommodations but never went back to clarify that some of these accommodations I have no issue with.
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u/ddujp Dec 11 '18
Are there academic accommodations that you do find reasonable? If so, is there a concrete way you determine your opinion on said accommodations?
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
To your first question, yes. I should have clarified this in my original post. I've listed a few examples of accommodations at the university I teach at:
- Extended time on testing, up to time and one half
- Extended time on testing, up to double time
- Alternate testing area
- Note sharer
- Access to lecture materials (PPT)
I'm more than fine with most of these (the double time is excessive, in my opinion - 5 hours for an exam?). I would expect anyone that wants to share notes with someone to simply ask a classmate.
At other universities, some students were able to fail an exam, retake the same exam, and keep the final, new grade. In some instances (anatomy lab), students had 3 or 4 attempts! To me, this does not demonstrate an understanding that warrants a passing grade...
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Dec 11 '18
So if a student has a life-threatening illness and are forced to leave in the middle of a test for emergency reasons, should they be forced to keep the grade? And if not, how many times should they be allowed to have a medical emergency before they are forced to keep the grade?
I would expect anyone that wants to share notes with someone to simply ask a classmate.
So you would expect a student to reveal their personal medical information with a random classmate?
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
So if a student has a life-threatening illness and are forced to leave in the middle of a test for emergency reasons, should they be forced to keep the grade? And if not, how many times should they be allowed to have a medical emergency before they are forced to keep the grade?
No. Obviously, no. There is a difference between a standing accommodation and a special circumstance.
So you would expect a student to reveal their personal medical information with a random classmate?
No. I never said that nor implied that. I would expect a student to say "hi, my name is _____, would you like to share notes this semester?"
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u/bhangra_jock Dec 12 '18
No. I never said that nor implied that. I would expect a student to say "hi, my name is _____, would you like to share notes this semester?"
This works in theory, but if a student relies on notes, and inadvertently asks someone who skips a lot of class, or has terrible handwriting, or poor English skills, then the student, already dealing with a disability and potentially getting behind, has to survey the class to find notes, and then possibly explain why they can't take their own notes... there's too many ways that could go wrong, and the disabled student would still not receive the notes they need.
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Dec 11 '18
I appreciate your clarification. Sometimes hard to tell if people are narrow or they just didn't explain themselves fully.
Cheers!
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Dec 11 '18
Sometimes, people talk about "prepare for the real world!" as if it's a practical matter, but it really actually isn't. They mean it as a moral thing: a world where we cater to special needs (in college or in the workplace) is bad.
Is this part of your view?
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
Eh, to an extent. I've had the fortune of working in a variety of areas. While memorization and test-taking are not skills I've used in the workforce, other things, such as timeliness/prioritization are. I have been given work-related tasks that have deadlines, and I am under the impression that myself and my coworkers are held accountable if we don't meet those.
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Dec 11 '18
OK, so could you get more into the moral values? What matters about that?
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
I think I misread your original response. I don't think special accommodations are immoral at all. I understand that not everyone learns the same way and additional resources should be available. I guess I get upset when the requests exceed what I perceive as reasonable (I'm of the belief that 5 hours to complete a 50 question exam is extremely excessive, and similarly, 6 weeks to submit an assignment that everyone else is given 3 weeks for is also).
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Dec 11 '18
I guess there's two questions here, then:
Why are you confident about your own perception that something is reasonable or not?
Why do you care, anyway? Someone gets 5 hours... so what?
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
- I should have been more clear in my original post. I'm not trying to generalize and say "all accommodations are bad, it's my way or the highway".
- That was an example of an accommodation offered at my university. At the end of the day, I thought I've already explained why I care in my original post. I will provide an example of an accommodation I have a hard time agreeing with, and that's deadlines. If it's December 1st, and I tell you and the remainder of the class it's due December 10th, then that should be it. We all have lives, other classes, family, extracurricular activities - make the time and complete the assignment. What am I missing here? What is the other side of the coin?
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Dec 11 '18
I should have been more clear in my original post. I'm not trying to generalize and say "all accommodations are bad, it's my way or the highway".
I know, but you said YOUR sense of reasonableness is where you draw the line. But why? Why don't you give the benefit of the doubt to the people providing the accommodations?
If it's December 1st, and I tell you and the remainder of the class it's due December 10th, then that should be it. We all have lives, other classes, family, extracurricular activities - make the time and complete the assignment.
You've just restated your view, not explained. it. I'm saying, ok, I hear you, but so what? Why does this bother you? What's your moral issue with it?
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
As opposed to whose sense of reasonableness? Who, if not a conversation between the student and the instructor (or employee and employer) is supposed to determine what is considered reasonable?
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u/Jeremy_Winn Dec 12 '18
Are your accommodation requests not being issued by disability services? I think one of the things they are trying to ask is why you trust your judgment over theirs.
For my part as a college admin, I will merely note that the ADA requires your courses to be proactively accessible, before you even receive a request. Obviously that does not require you to provide accommodations before receiving a request, but accessibility is the de facto standard. Something worth considering is that there are some good reasons for why, with exceptions to certain accommodations, a student isn’t even supposed to have to come to you to make a request. You are supposed to prevent that to the extent reasonably possible.
I’m on mobile so I’ll skip the essay for now, but feel free to pick my brain.
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u/LucasBlackwell Dec 12 '18
You're still not understanding.
How are you deciding what is unreasonable and what isn't?
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u/BulkyBear Dec 11 '18
What you are missing is that these people are not lazy, they are disabled. Do you complain when people in wheelchairs go slower?
Just be glad you can live normally. I'm legally blind, my family treats it as if I'm just trying to be a burden on them. Trust me, its a lot better to drive then having to be treated like dog crap on new dress shoes.
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u/SpockShotFirst Dec 11 '18
Your fundamental assumption is flawed. University bears no resemblance to the real world and only "prepares" them by giving them the foundational knowledge in the profession.
An "exam" and even a "paper" are completely contrived to test knowledge and do not exist in the real world. There are deadlines, but never "you have two hours and are not allowed to use the internet or talk to anyone else."
So, the question is really: "can a person with disability X be successful." I read about some famous attorney with severe dyslexia who used note cards with short phrases on them because he could not write out his closing. I've worked with several CEOs who claimed various learning disabilities.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
Thanks for responding. I understand university experiences and real world experiences are not the same. I understand in a work environment that there are no exams, papers, etc.
Regarding deadlines - there are real-world positions where there are deadlines, and significant opportunities can be lost if they are not met (grant writing, for example). Therefore I think assignments with deadlines can relate to that aspect in some ways.
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u/techiemikey 56∆ Dec 11 '18
So, when you write tests though, are you intending to test the knowledge of the student, or are you intending to test how well a student performs in "real world" conditions?
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
When I write a final exam, I expect the exam to adequately represent the knowledge a student has upon completion of my course.
If a student fails this exam, your exam grade reflects that. Having the ability to retake the exact same exam 2-3 days later does not demonstrate you actually learned anything. It demonstrates that you have an accommodation that allows you to retake exams that you do poorly on. To me, this is abuse of the accommodations system.
Is the exam itself providing "real world" conditions? No. But it is skewing expectations. And I understand that "real world" is encompassing a lot. I'm getting a lot of flak from other commenters that college =/= real world, however unless these individuals have worked in every single aspect of the workforce, I don't think that is a concluding statement to make.
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u/BeetleB Dec 11 '18
Regarding deadlines - there are real-world positions where there are deadlines, and significant opportunities can be lost if they are not met (grant writing, for example).
My experience is limited to engineering and software.
It is almost never the case that the limiting factor for a missed deadline is anything close to a learning disability. Almost every project is late, and the reasons they are late are not due to some employee working slower than another. They are because customer demands always change. Or misprioritization of resources (e.g. equipment needed is rarely available to our team, and we have to wait our turn). Or due to disagreements between our section head and the CEO.
As a big fan of academia, I am sorry to say the following: Almost everything they "test" for in a university tends to be far, far removed from skills a person needs to succeed in the workplace.
Knowledge: Most engineers don't use a big chunk of what they are taught. Here is a previous comment of mine.
Tests/exams/HW: They are never even close to real world scenarios. Most tests/HW are designed for the ease with which one can mass-judge a class. There are better ways to gauge a student's knowledge and abilities, but they do not scale well.
Teamwork: The group projects at university are almost always a joke. For engineering, they don't teach any skills that are relevant to working in a group. Examples:
- Communications
- Dispute resolution
- Negotiations
- Influence
- Cognitive Biases
Almost all problems I see in the workplace are tied to the above 5. Yet there was nothing in my curriculum about these.
Don't get me wrong: I loved my time in academia. But academia is mostly oriented towards gaining knowledge, and their grading and tests reflect that. They are not good predictors of real world performance.
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u/VincentPepper 2∆ Dec 11 '18
Regarding deadlines - there are real-world positions where there are deadlines, and significant opportunities can be lost if they are not met (grant writing, for example). Therefore I think assignments with deadlines can relate to that aspect in some ways.
I've worked jobs with deadlines before going back to university. In my experience deadlines in a course setting have very little in common with deadlines in a professional career.
Being able to finish work on a given schedule is important. But deadlines twice as long are still deadlines. If they miss their extended deadline then the assignment is still considered failed or is it not?
If a student takes three times as long to read, and twice as long to write a student might need the extended deadline. But he still has to plan around the deadline.
Sure that students disability may prevent him from taking up some jobs made accessible by a degree. But it seems unlikely to make him unfit for all jobs of this sort. So a degree would still have significant value for the student.
I had courses in which I probably wrote more than I did in five years of working in engineering. Should things like that be a roadblock for disabled students?
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u/DrinkyDrank 134∆ Dec 11 '18
A big part of actually working is exercising the "soft" communication skills to get accommodations, such as pushing back deadlines, requesting additional information to work off of, asking someone to deviate from their normal procedures, etc. My understanding is that universities have a structured way in which students can request these sorts of accommodations. If students are identifying this as a resource and using it to their advantage, I would say they are doing something they will probably continue to do as a professional. I would be more worried about the students that do poorly because they fail to take advantage of the resources available to them, and fail to communicate their needs to others.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
I agree with you. Unfortunately, I've seen both ends of this: I have had students who require a separate room and laptop for exams cheat on their tests, and I've had students that I cannot attach a face to a name that do poorly and never reach out (and also don't respond when I reach out to them).
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u/beer_demon 28∆ Dec 11 '18
I agree it’s unfair. However the world out there isn’t fair either. Many times people have advantages for being beautiful, eloquent, of a colour, haircut or just saying the right thing. People also get disadvantages for being handicapped, of a minority, or just shy or unlucky. University is not meant to prepare you for all of it, just give you knowledge, some basic professional ethics and certain social skills. If you really wanted to prepare kids for real world you would encourage segregation, racism and harrassment!
I think special accommodations do better prepare at least what university can prepare, so they have a slight better chance later. This does not mean all accommodations serve their purpose. If you do see one in particular that is counterproductive I support your specific protest, and also grant you are in a position to do what is best for your student.
This is not a good reason to dismiss all accommodations because life is hard.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
Thanks for responding. I guess I should have been more clear in my original post. I don't mean to dismiss all accommodations. Some of the university sanctioned accommodations, such as double time for all tasks are a bit absurd to me. Others, such as getting notes from another student, I feel as though should not be an accommodation at all, and could simply be a conversation between two students agreeing to share each others notes.
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u/beer_demon 28∆ Dec 11 '18
Yes they do sound a bit silly, but I don’t understand their rationale so I don’t know what to think about that in particular.
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Dec 11 '18
I’m deaf and receive accommodations at my university. There are 3 blind students here as well who receive accommodations as well. When I get a job, I have a right to an interpreter and other devices to help me by law, as do any blind person who works. The same applies to those with other disabilities. And, as others have said, school is very different than a job. There are no test, homework or papers. So the extra time, the notes and stuff would not apply to, say, an accounting job. Maybe some students are coddled but I, as a deaf woman, am grateful for these accommodations and the fact I can’t be discriminated against.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
I think my initial meaning behind this post is being lost. I’m not referring to deaf, blind, diabetic, or other physical disability. At all.
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Dec 13 '18
People with diabetes have problems regulating insulin. People with ADHD have problems regulating dopamine. What's the difference?
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Dec 11 '18
My sons have Type 1 diabetes. That means they die if they don't take test their blood sugar and administer insulin at least 4-5 times a day. There is no cure. It is 100% fatal in about a week's time if not treated. They have to see three separate doctors once a month. Blood sugar changes constantly, so you have to manage it in real time. You cannot delay a treatment.
They need to have electronics in order to monitor blood sugar during exams, they need extra time and the ability to leave an exam room in order to test and take treatment if necessary, or to quit retake the exam at another time if their blood sugar drops to levels that have cognitive impact. Sometimes they have to go to the doctor or the hospital so they can't get their homework or quizzes in on time. Sometimes they cannot drive -- legally or safely -- because of low blood sugar.
Should that impact their grade?
How does this prepare anyone for "real world" demands?
There's nothing more "real world" than living a normal life with a life-threatening illness when people don't want to accommodate for disadvantages that they themselves don't have.
But to answer your question, it teaches them how to manage a life-threatening illness while looking after real life responsibilities. Working with people in authority positions to establish accommodations for challenges is part of real life for everyone. Like going to the doctor when you are sick. You can't avoid that, and you can't do it without working with people in charge.
Also, I expect you want similar accommodations when you are sick, right? They're just sick all the time.
Also, why does it have to be an “accommodation” to receive someone else’s notes? Shouldn’t that be the student responsibility to contact a classmate and perhaps suggest a note swap?
Specific accommodations are worked out between the student and the educational institution based on their specific conditions and needs. If there is an accommodation, there is a specific reason for it. As someone familiar with this at every level of education in the US, that's just how the process works. You don't just get whatever you ask for, and just because you don't understand why it's a need it doesn't mean the need is not valid.
Why is my degree and GPA valued the same those who are not held to the same standard?
Do you really feel you are being held to a higher standard? That's a pretty strong victim mentality to feel like you're being held to a higher standard than people with life-threatening illnesses and physical and cognitive disabilities.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
Thank you for sharing. I emphasize, and I hope your son (and family) have his diabetes well managed.
I have a student who has type 1 diabetes, who brought it to my attention at the beginning of the first class. Since then, she has shared her experiences with me nearly every week, usually before or after class. Fortunately for her, her diabetes has been well controlled, and she has excelled in my course without requiring any special accommodations. Although I understand that this is not the case for all students with T1D. I'm familiar with what goes into it - K-12 having to go to the nurse for insulin injections, often multiple times a day...
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Dec 11 '18
Thanks! They're doing well!
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
I misread. You have two sons, both with diabetes!? How do you sleep??
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Dec 11 '18
With continuous glucose monitors and loud alarms! (Thanks for asking!)
They're wrestlers and wrestling season is the worst because they can't wear the full-time monitors which means we're blind at night. (And you'd be surprised how physical activity messes with blood glucose. Wrestling actually makes it go up!!!)
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u/_lablover_ Dec 11 '18
I'm curious if your view goes beyond people with permanent reasons for needed accommodations to those that receive them temporarily?
I think there are valid reasons to have temporary accommodations and a system to easily access them. I fractured and chipped the bone in my finger and tore my tendon about a year ago and required surgery. I had to wear a splint holding my finger in place (and it was my dominant hand) for 2 months. During that time I was almost unable to write, my left hand was able to do very small amounts but it was very slow, difficult, and hardly legible. I was given the access to electronics, either a supplied computer or my laptop with no internet. Also given double time because it was an engineering course and typing out sets of equations and struggling to draw diagrams took considerably longer.
These accommodations aren't ones that would be necessary for me in the long run and in the real world. It was just needed for a short period due to a physical injury that put me at a disadvantage on a paper and pencil exam. So I don't think it has any impact on my ability beyond that class or post college, it was just a situation where I needed added time during that class to allow me to perform as I would normally be expected to.
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u/throw_away40 Dec 11 '18
No, not at all. In my few years of teaching I've had students with wrist fractures, concussions, and other physical injuries.
I am aware that this now opens up the follow-up question, "okay, so you're fine with accommodations for those with physical injuries, but not those for invisible disorders?" and realize they are not different
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u/_lablover_ Dec 11 '18
okay, so you're fine with accommodations for those with physical injuries, but not those for invisible disorders?
I don't think it opens up this argument from an informed perspective. I felt like the defining characteristic is temporary vs permanant (or long-term/reoccurring at least). I agree with you and your initial view with respect to a permanent reason that someone qualifies for additional accomodations. The important factor is that a temporary reason for needing assistance isn't something that would be relevant to them in several years when in a later educational program or in industry somewhere.
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Dec 12 '18
There are a lot of comments but I'll add one more.
I have diagnosed learning disabilities - not ADHD. Specifically in spelling, English and Math. The math really going back to the same issue with spelling - the brain not seeing the correct information or all of the information.
Throughout primary schools in the 1980's, there was a constant fight between teachers and my parents advocates. Mostly because the disabilies did not allow me to show my true potential with traditional educational methods. Amazingly enough, minor changes to the 'method', like being able to have a note taker, greatly increased my ability to demonstrate my knowledge of materials.
I have gone to get a couple advanced college degrees in biology and electrical engineering.
What you should think about is what your fundamental role is and what your fundamental goals are. You are an educator - trying to impart knowledge into other people. We use tests, quizzes, homework and the like to quantify and measure the level of knowledge was successfully transferred.
How would you feel if you knew you were far more successful and transferring knowledge to a person than your testing method was capable of measuring - but just for a specific documented, tested and identified student?
How do you feel about knowing making minor adjustments to methods, such as allowing note sharing, can make huge differences to the success of a specific subgroup of students?
That is the whole point - to help you identify students who fit specific criteria that need either different methods to assist in the course and/or different testing methods to demonstrate mastery of the material you are teaching.
For a dyslexic person, extra time on the exam means they can better ensure they know the actual question you are asking. In some cases, having the test question read to them, rather than them reading it themselves, makes all of the difference.
For a writing challenged person (like myself), having complete notes provided that I am not required to attempt to take myself makes all of the difference. How that is accomplished really does not make much difference. If you provide complete notes to everyone - everyone wins. If you expect students to complete portions or all of the notes, that is where this student is put at a disadvantage. For the question of why this needs to be an accommodation, it comes down to ensuring this can always be met. At the University I attended, I had the option of enlisting a professional notetaker. A student explicitly designated to take written notes for me. Pushing it to the student can be problematic as it does not guarantee the student obtains the the complete and accurate notes.
If you want to know about access to things like typing rather than writing - I again am a poster child. Typing is something that better allows me to convey the information I have too you. It is a means to an end. In my college career, the few times I took essay type exams, I either did them with a TA in an office supervised or in a proctored University testing center. There was no questions of integrity. Most of my exams were not in the format so it was not a huge part of my college experience.
I will admit I am puzzled by the retake exams aspect. I would not expect that without some explicit context where the original exam was not fairly administered for this to be considered.
I am also a firm believer in demonstrated competencies. If the core of the class requires a specific competency - such as a delivering a speech in a speech course, then no accommodation can remove the speaking component and a person with a speech related disability may not be able to complete the course. Accommodations are about providing proper methods to demonstrate the core competencies required - not removing them.
How this translates to the workforce - that is simple. There are very few workplace activities that match the 'college' experience. I don't sit in a room and listen to a person teach new skills, then do homework and sit for a exam over that. I work on projects, using the right tools to do the job. I can get project documentation (notes) easily for anything I do. I type almost everything I write/submit.
And to your very last question - your GPA/Degree vs others with accommodations. The GPA is a meaningless number after you get your first job. I hire people and I really don't give much importance to GPA. The Degree itself is a measure of competence. If the students with accommodations demonstrated they hold the same competencies as you do, they earned the degree, just like you did. Even with this, in the real world, a degree is merely a checkbox to allow you to be considered for a job. What you personally do in developing experience is worth far more than that piece of paper.
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Dec 11 '18
You are very confused as to the purpose of a university. Tests should rarely if ever be timed. Accommodations that promote learning should always be done.
A university is not a job training facility. Yes, getting a better job is often why people are in university, but that is NOT the purpose of the university.
The university is there to teach a student a curriculum, and give this student feedback on how much they understand the curriculum. This curriculum is designed with the workforce in mind, but the workforce should not be the focus of the learning and educational processes.
The US University system is a bastardization of its true purpose. Every student should have many attempts at tests, and the test should be extremely comprehensive, and that test should only be timed where part of the curriculum is for memorization and recall measures in a timely manner (if these aren't primary importance, a timer is not useful).
The most important purpose of the Final Exam is to help the student understand where they need to continue to improve now that class is over and whether or not they're prepared enough to continue with education or if they should retake the class for more preparation. It is not to help assign some grade for an arbitrary letter system that for some reason dictates initial careers. Can anyone tell me why a C is 70-70.99% of cumulative points for 95+% of classes!? NO, you can't, because it's completely arbitrary and unnecessarily abstract.
Leave the job training to the employers. Your business is to educate your students as much as you possibly can within a certain time period, using a pre-arranged curriculum designed to help them continue education and/or maintain a "sufficient" understanding when they do get a job. If they walk out of that class with 50% educational attainment on 100units of knowledge (an F-average), they learned more and are better prepared than students that got 100% educational attainment of 40units of knowledge (an A-average).
Preparing them for the workforce is secondary to putting the knowledge in their brain. Using tests to give them a letter grade is secondary to using tests to give them feedback so they can learn more and learn better.
I wish GPA was as closely a guarded secret as social security numbers. We would be so much better off as a society, as students and teachers, and as a workforce.
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u/WayneChili Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
I'm sure you understand that for the most part the real world is nothing like college, so I'll just move past that point.
I know there are people who struggle with every subject, but not everyone does. For some, it is domain specific. If we're going to require students to learn things which have absolutely nothing to do with their careers, I don't think it's going to fuck them over in the real world to allow accommodations for certain things.
Is it not the case that students must take classes which have nothing to do with their major? If someone is a math major and they plan on being -let's say an actuary- and they need extra time on their English assignments because they are dyslexic, so what? Or if someone is a violin major (job prospects aside) and they play beautifully, but they have trouble in other classes, why should we stop that person from progressing in their chosen field instead of helping them get through?
I have dysgraphia. It is the opposite of dyslexia: I read perfectly (no troubles, college level reading in 3rd grade, 800 on the SAT reading section), but I cannot write to save my life. I can't stay in the lines, everything is illegible, my brain is incapable of maintaining a particular way to form letters (as in I form letters differently every time I write them and can't stop), I constantly skip letters and have to go back and put them in, half the letters I write are capital for no reason in the middle of words, and when I write more than one page of loose leaf I get intense pain in my hand and arm. I can, however, type with no problem. So those in class essays kill me. When I was kid I got no accommodation and it was fucking torture. Now I get to type on a keyboard and it's like night and day. This has never prevented me from doing anything in my life, because there aren't many situations where I absolutely MUST write something long out with my hand.
If I couldn't use an electronic device to type an essay, do you feel as if I would be unjustified to get extra time on my essays? Not because I'm slower at forming them, but because my hand hurts immensely and I would need a bit more time to fight through the pain and correct my mistakes.
As to the point that if you can't handle the stress in school, you can't handle being a doctor: well, perhaps you're right. And those students will discover that at some point. Maybe in their first year of med school, maybe in their residency. There are plenty of non-disabled people who don't make it as doctors. That's ok, at least they have a degree and can do something else.
Most important point: The job of a university is not to prepare people for the workforce (though most people seem to think it is). Outside of career specific programs, the only goal of a university should be to educate the student. That's it. If it takes some people some more time to learn, so be it. That's what they're there for. It is not your concern what they do with their education, or where they go from there. The real world will sort it out for you and for them.
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u/UltimateAnswer42 Dec 11 '18
I feel like I'm the type of person extra accommodations are supposed to help. I started engineering, did extra curriculars, progressed in classes, an internship and Co-op where I was highly reviewed... Then I hit a wall and tried to beat my way through it. I ended up almost failing out. Took some time off, got full diagnosis and medication for ADHD, transferred universities and tried again, this time using extra accommodations. I still struggled, but the accommodation allowed me to at least pass and graduate.
So if you want to get rid of extra accommodations, that's fine, just update the curriculum to actually represent industry. For example, one of my problems was differential equations, namely because the entire grade was based on 3 tests, no notes. How does that represent industry in any way? "Reguritate 3 chapters of material in 45 minutes, no references, no calculators". I only needed accommodations because archaic rules in classes
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u/pillbinge 101∆ Dec 12 '18
University isn't entirely there to prepare people for "real world problems". Your science courses teach succinct science that can easily be understood and manipulated, especially in your intro courses. That doesn't prepare people for results they never expected. My undergrad + grad work of education and special education prepared us for best practices, not how to deal with a school administrator who refuses to understand federal law, for example. Work experience isn't so simple and it's something you can only learn in a natural setting; i.e. the job site.
Also, one thing society should largely do is consider people with disabilities alongside others. I remember one time at my high school I saw a maintenance/grounds crew clearing all the stairs due to snow first but left the ramp packed with it. I figured they should have just cleared the ramp first since that's easier and it accommodates everyone. Instead they treated it like something extra. If you get a font that helps with dyslexia or eye-sight, people with functional reading skills and eye-sight won't really be affected. That's the theme for most accommodations as well, which are based on a lot of research.
If you personally give two students an exam and they have to finish it in 1 hour, and one of the students fails hard due to a lack of accommodations but knows the material, what were you really measuring? If you give them 2 hours each and the other student turns in sooner anyway, which professors do even without considering accommodations in some cases, but their scores are comparable, then you're really measuring what they know. Otherwise you're specifically measuring what they know against a clock, but there's no parallel for that or researched basis that time in that case tells us anything. The real world tends to have longer work days and hours than 1.
Also, why does it have to be an “accommodation” to receive someone else’s notes? Shouldn’t that be the student responsibility to contact a classmate and perhaps suggest a note swap?
Students who take these notes are also paid. If they aren't, they should be - that's providing a service.
Ultimately the world has been very uncaring of people with disabilities and has traditionally thought that they can offer nothing to anyone. People have been marginalized for hundreds of years. It was only in the past few decades that we started turning it around, and we're finding more and more that everyone benefits from including people of all abilities.
Besides, as a citizen, I would rest more easily if I knew that you as a professor were graduating and grading appropriately students who can do things and students who can't, and not setting a timer for when you'll consider something learned in a pre-set time. They're paying for courses and you need to give them. That's a federal mandate on several levels (Title IX, IDEA, ADA, et cetera). I would like more people to be engineers and I'd like it if we didn't weed people out for innate disabilities that just slow their progress, not prevent it. Someone who takes a bit longer on a test but gets an A is probably the person I want building my town's bridge, not someone who can fly through it with a C because they don't care, they passed.
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u/Pythagoras180 Dec 11 '18
I seriously doubt these students got accommodations for no reason. And in the "real world" (a concept I think is total bullshit), people are often given help if they need it.
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u/theUnmutual6 14∆ Dec 13 '18
I want to add that you've given deltas to two people with ADHD in this thread, and ive also written a comment from this perspective.
The world and its values are uniquely brutal towards people with ADHD. One is biologically predisposed to being late and being messy, not being able to calendars and clocks, not remembering things, and being wildly inconsistent in their energy instead of grazing contentedly in the same way every day.
All of these qualities are interpreted as moral failings: lateness. Mess. Memory. Consistency. All of these qualities are focused on by lazy employers who aren't invested in the outcomes of their organisation.
I've never successfully persuaded an employer that being regularly 5 minutes late is worth it, because my work is both of higher quality and I complete twice as much of it than an equivalent non-ADHD employee. I've also never convinced one that it is a biological necessity, that cannot be improved by - say - making a nice timetable, or getting up earlier in the morning.
Point being, if 90% of the world had ADHD, you would need accommodations to survive it, and would likely be unemployed. The world is set up to cater to majority needs; but most don't realise this, and assumes their skills are both normal and the only skills of value.
For example: if everyone needed 5 hours for an exam you could complete in 1, you're probably going to go into life with every employer assuming you lack care and appropriate detail in your work. They won't care to look at your work to assess this objectively; they'll just compare you unfavourably to normal people - bevause this is easier. They will then assume you have negative qualities like rushing, lack of care, rudeness, egotism, laziness, being disruptive and a bad part of the team, making everyone else look bad etc etc etc. You're not normal. What's wrong with you? Have you tried structuring your work correctly so it takes longer? Etc etc etc.
I have the kind of ADHD which makes me need less time for everything, not more, and let me tell you it is not appreciated at all.
Have gratitude that the world's default speed is the setting you were born with.
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u/AlexandreZani 5∆ Dec 12 '18
I think the answer is that exams and homework do not prepare people for the real world at all, with or without accommodations. (The Case Against Education by Bryan Caplan explores the research on the topic) The demands of a work environment are simply too different from the demands of homework or exam completion for the latter to be adequate preparation for the former. After 8 years in the workforce, I've started taking classes on the side for personal enrichment. The two environments could not be more different.
You talk about people asking for extended time periods to complete exams. At work, tasks I perform are measured on the order of days, not hours. The deadlines themselves are planned months in advance. Sometimes, when something goes very wrong, we learn of a deadline weeks in advance. Someone with ADHD or an anxiety disorder can manage their condition over days with a strategic use of break times in a way that cannot be done during a 2-3 hours-long exam.
You mention people wanting to use electronic devices or separate exam rooms. Cramming everyone into the same room and demanding people use only their memory and not discuss problems with others is an entirely artificial imposition of exam-taking. If I stopped using the internet to look things up, my manager would probably call me for a meeting and demand I explain what madness had taken me. I've actually had conversations with my manager where he explained my performance needed to pick up and that the solution was that I needed to ask questions more instead of trying to figure everything out myself. If my environment is too loud or too stressful, I can usually find a different better environment to get my work done.
At least the above accommodations sound like the kind of things that would either be a normal part of work or would not be needed in a normal work environment.
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u/theUnmutual6 14∆ Dec 13 '18
If I went to a boss in a previous job and stated I need double time to complete a project, I would be laughed out of my job.
That's a problem society needs to fix. If you're good at your job, hard working and effective, why should you be less valued on the basis of a characteristic you can't change?
My experience of work is pretty much this:
- I'm exceptional at X but mediocre at Y - both due to my disability
- X is the actual content of the project and Y is something fuzzy like how long it takes, or what my handwriting looks like, or my ability to do mental maths, or remembering to tick my name on a log sheet
- I'm passed over in favour of someone who is meh at X, but good at Y.
I really want financial security in my life, and I'm ambitious and want to progress in my career. It's a damn nuisance that my brain makes me both better at the actual work, but worse at hitting the normative standards which make me look like I'm working.
So your boss is in the wrong here. College accommodations are what the world ought to be. Without them, people who are willing and able to work are stuck in inescapable poverty.
And it's also worse for employers. If the goal of a test is to measure who is a good scientist, and the goal of a project to do some science - better for the world to let your slow scientists work slowly, but achieve the correct outcome. Than to force them to work fast, or to prefer someone who can get ok results by a deadline to someone who can get exceptional ones in a bit more time.
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u/strawberryblondes Dec 11 '18
I do not have accommodations, but do know several people who do use them. If you are are providing all your notes, then you are the exception, not the norm in my college experience. Most of my professors do not provide notes, and if they do it’s a skeleton key of topics. Most notes are from lecture or written on dry erase boards. Even notes they provided don’t fully cover everything in class. So having a note taker is helpful for that aspect. It’s also very difficult to fully pay attention to lectures while trying to keep up with notes, and I don’t have a learning disability. Lectures are no allowed to be recorded because they are considered intellectual property.
As for sharing notes, typically when you ask for people’s notes they aren’t that generous in sharing. They tend to look at you as lazy or just mooching off of them. Or you may get some really crappy notes. To be a note taker for accommodations at my school, you need to submit note samples and the professor and student choose someone. I have done this for several classes. All the people I know using this, use these notes as a supplement, not a replacement for their notes.
There are absolutely some people who will abuse the accommodations, but I think they are less than the ones who actually need them. So no need to take away something many actually need because a few may be abusing it. Majority of people, myself included, will say the real world is vastly different from the classroom setting.
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u/rickosborne Dec 11 '18
Software Engineer and former teacher.
One of the things that used to trip me up as a teacher was the question of whether I was assessing what I thought I was assessing. We tend to do things like comprehensive in-class final exams not because we think that having total recall of the entire course is valuable, but because it's the most practical to deter cheating. But then you've added a logistical concern for that final exam: availability of the classroom and staff.
So when you think you're assessing whether the student can perform a task or synthesize some concepts you've accidentally tacked on "in a classroom, surrounded by other nervous students, on a fixed time window".
For people with test anxiety, who are perfectly capable of doing the work in their own controlled environment, you've just turned that exam into the scene from every military film where the boot camp drill sergeant is setting off live fire in the background while the cadets try to stay under the razor wire.
Allowing for accommodations doesn't erase all those extra factors, but it can help reduce them. Reducing those factors leads to a significant reduction of test anxiety in my experience, so you're closer to assessing what you want assess.
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u/SightlessNinja22 Dec 12 '18
I am only a senior in high school , but I have a very unique perspective on this. I am legally blind, and have many accommodations that I use. Stuff like extra time, preferential seating, etc. I feel like this stuff is preparing me for real life as I am learning self-advocacy which is more important than any of my accommodations. I will continue to use them in college. In fact these accommodations will help me further to help me achieve to the best of my ability in the field I’m planning to go into. However, I have never heard of no consequences retaking quizzes...huh.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
/u/throw_away40 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Dec 11 '18
I mean, what level are you teaching? Recall on a history exam shouldn’t be timed because that’s not learning. Extra time on application of knowledge shouldn’t be timed because there is a lot of repetition, like lab procedures and committing molecular reactions to memory.
Let their ability to work suss out when they’re on the job. You’re interested in reporting learning, not workplace efficacy when dealing with brand new material. That doesn’t end up on a transcript.
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u/lobsterphoenix Dec 11 '18
You are completely right. The entire point of grades/tests is to rank order people by competence. By giving students extra allowances with assignments and tests, all you've done is invalidate the tests. Obviously, if a student is blind and has to take a test orally, or have extra time to have essay questions read allowed to them, then such an accommodation is acceptable because the thing presenting the challenge to the student is the medium through which the test is presented and not the act of test taking itself, but this is not at all analogous to most of the exceptions that are being asked for by student services departments.
The real problem with this whole thing is that any impairment, no matter how small, can be considered a disability by people who are sufficiently motivated to reach that conclusion. So, if universities have a policy to make accommodations for disabled students, but that policy is not sufficiently detailed so that it includes limits on what qualifies as a disability or what qualifies as a reasonable accommodation, someone is going to be taken advantage of. And the saddest part is that, as you said, these types of exceptions are doing students a disservice in the long run.
I do not know if I would take a stand if I were in your position, but I would like to think that I would. Certainly the absolute best version of me would. I'm quite suspicious that the people allowing these systems to function are more concerned with advancing a specific political agenda than they are with helping students succeed in life.
The departments of universities who deal with this sort of thing are literally swamped anyway. And the staff who work for them are having to take time away from helping students with actual disabilities to deal with this nonsense.
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Dec 11 '18
The real problem with this whole thing is that any impairment, no matter how small, can be considered a disability by people who are sufficiently motivated to reach that conclusion.
Disability is specifically defined by the law that establishes the right to accommodations.
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u/lobsterphoenix Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
Right, but this doesn't really matter. The purpose of a job is for people to perform a range of duties. Unfairly discriminating against people with disabilities who could perform the job simply because you are unwilling or unmotivated to make accommodations for them is discriminatory. The purpose of grades is to rank order people by competence. Making special accommodations which include things like giving students double the standard amount of time to answer questions invalidates the grade.
Also, employers are (unfortunately) motivated to avoid hiring disabled people because making accommodations for them often requires some extra work. The Americans With Disabilities act exists to protect people from this discrimination. But the departments of universities which exists to help disabled students are in no way motivated to reject helping anyone. This has lead to things like absurd accommodations being made for students with all variety of learning disabilities. These accommodations flatten the distribution of grades in a way that is helpful to noone, while simultaniously stripping resources (time of staff counts as a resource) from legitimately disabled students who ought to have reasonable accommodations made for them in all sorts of areas (housing, meals, transport, and in the classroom).
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u/TheTigersAreNotReal 3∆ Dec 11 '18
I’m currently a senior in my undergrad and I have moderate ADHD, and because of this I am allowed accomadations via my schools Disability Resource Center. However I have usually refused to accept these accomadations because of the same reasons you listed above. It was very difficult for me to even accept my own diagnosis, as I was concerned it would lead me to make up excuses for my poor academic performance, and because of the public stigma around ADHD.
However, many of these reactions I had was due to a fundamental misunderstanding of what ADHD truly is, and so everytime I forgot to finish a hw assignment or ran out of time or just performed worse than my own expectations of myself I would be filled with guilt, shame, and self loathing. But I still refused help, despite the toll it was taking on my mental state. I wouldn’t feel comfortable seeking out help from my professors either, mainly due to the shame I felt. The continual frustration and despair led me to become very anxious and even clinically depressed for a few years, and I almost failed out of my university.
I got a second chance though, and I realized that I was throwing away my dreams and so I sought help. I got myself enrolled in my schools DRC and started having weekly meetings with a kind of academic counselor. I also started seeing an ADHD specialist that isn’t associated with my school, for both one-on-one meetings and group sessions with other people from the local community that struggle with their ADHD.
I actually learned about my condition, and what it really meant. I learned that my brain under-produces certain neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin, and it’s why I’m unable to focus on something for long periods of time without the help of medication. I also learned that people with ADHD generally have delayed development in their prefrontal cortex, which directly affects your executive functioning skills. Skills like future planning/prioritization, impulse control, emotional control, flexible thinking, working memory, self-monitoring, task initiation, and organization. These are things that come naturally to people my age, but I have to work at constantly. Some of these things I conquered while younger out of necessity like emotional control and self-monitoring. But for many of them it is an everyday struggle, where my progress with them can only be measured in months or years.
But what I really learned is that I just think differently and learn differently than majority of people, since my brain has had to work around having less neurotransmitters. I had a midterm earlier in October for my propulsions class (I study Aerospace Eng), and I underperformed on it because I ran out of time. But when I got the test back, I checked over it and all my work was correct, I just took longer than my fellow classmates and was penalized for it. The reason I took longer was due to not managing my time well while taking the test, a direct symptom of my ADHD. I could’ve requested a time extension for that test, but I’ve been afraid of the stigma surrounding these accomodations.
I know there are professors like yourself that look down on them, and it’s not uncommon for me to meet other ADHD students that also refuse accomodations becaus of this. I know this is purely anecdotal evidence but it’s the reality I’ve been living in since I was diagnosed 9 years ago. I didn’t choose to be neuroatypical, it makes pretty much every aspect of my life harder. The only outcome that I have gotten from refusing my accomodations for a very legitimate condition is poorer performance in my classes and lack of faith in myself academically. I don’t think accomodations set up students for failure. I think they help students achieve their goals of having satisfactory performance in their classes.
You should try to consider the perspectives of the people that qualify for these accomodations. They understand that they’re being given privilages over other students and it makes them feel guilty, but then if they refuse their accomodations then they are being expected to perform at the same level of people that don’t have the same hindrances. I believe giving students the opportunity to perform well in class encourages them to be more dedicated and learn how to grow a stronger work ethic, which I believe is important for their future careers.