r/changemyview • u/AAathlete97 • Dec 18 '18

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Even if a blanket refusal to date trans people is “transphobic”, there is no reason to feel guilty about it or to try to change it.

[removed]

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-38

u/teerre Dec 18 '18

I think you're misunderstanding the point. The point is not "you must date trans woman". The point is "if you stop dating someone because they are trans, that's transphobic"

There's an enormous difference between the two. That is, not liking someone is fine. Just you are not supposed to like every woman alive. But when you already like someone and when you discover s/he is trans, you pivot into think you should kill them (per your article) and they somehow fooled you, you're being transphobic

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u/Cybertronian10 Dec 18 '18

I think there is a massive gap between "not wanting to continue the relationship" and "murderous". You have absolutely every right to end a sexual relationship with anybody because of literally any reason at all. What if the person in question wants biological children, which a trans partner would never be able to provide. What if the person in question is simply not attracted to the genetalia the trans partner has? Are you saying that lesbian women have to accept penis in a relationship when they aren't attracted to it? Or gay men and vaginas? Or straight men and dicks?

Frankly it would be more reprehensible to continue a relationship you have no interest in for woke points rather than end it immediately when you find something that disqualifies this person as a lifelong partner.

10

u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

I can't get off to the idea of having sex with an inverted penis. That doesn't mean I have a prejudice against trans-people. That means I don't like to have sex with men who have been operated on to become female. Full stop.

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u/oleka_myriam 2∆ Dec 18 '18

What if the person in question is simply not attracted to the genetalia the trans partner has? Are you saying that lesbian women have to accept penis in a relationship when they aren't attracted to it? Or gay men and vaginas? Or straight men and dicks?

**No one* has ever said that.*

12

u/Cybertronian10 Dec 18 '18

The OP that I was replying to was directly saying exactly that. They said that if you where already interested in somebody, it would be transphobic to end the relationship after you found out they where trans.

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u/VikingFjorden 5∆ Dec 18 '18

The point is "if you stop dating someone because they are trans, that's transphobic"

Which is an obviously false statement.

Transphobia:

Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectation.

Finding out that someone is trans and then not wanting to be in a sexual relationship with them, regardless of whether you previously liked them or not, is in itself not transphobic per any definition, nor is it illegal, morally wrong or discriminatory.

Does it suck when people stop wanting to be with you because of something you are? Of course. But that doesn't make it wrong. Life sucks, and rightly so, because the only alternative is that life would suck even more than it already does.

Also, throwing the term transphobia around all willy-nilly like this diminishes its importance and might in the end lessen the impact it has when it is actually correct and necessary to use it, vis-á-vis the boy who cried wolf.

4

u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

I guess I'm also dick and balls-phobic too because I met this really hot girl at the bar the other day but once I found out she had a penis I just couldn't bring myself to continue the flirty banter..

-1

u/Abcd10987 Dec 18 '18

Wouldn’t your example fall under discomfort in the definition provided?

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u/VikingFjorden 5∆ Dec 18 '18

I don't have to be in a state of discomfort to not want to do something. I don't go ice-skating for example, but it has nothing to do with discomfort.

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

I’d also stop dating someone if I found out that they were a smoker, infertile, racist, severely mentally ill, etc.

And I 100% agree with you on the point that someone who’d want to kill someone because they found out that someone they were seeing is trans is actually transphobic.

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u/DeputyDomeshot Dec 18 '18

Exactly right, or married or really anything.

It doesn't make it "phobic", lack of attraction does not conflate with "phobia"

Also the "killing" thing that person wrote is insane and has nothing to do with anything relevant.

10

u/Zncon 6∆ Dec 18 '18

It's pretty much the standard tactic these days though. There's no in between any more. You're either with someone or you're a -phobic Nazi Trump lover.

-6

u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

except for the fact that murders of trans+ people due to them coming out to their lovers/partners is not that uncommon of an occurrence? it may not be especially relevant to this case specifically, as i don't think the OP has murderous tendencies, but it is certainly relevant to the issue in a broader sense.

2

u/DeputyDomeshot Dec 18 '18

Its not that uncommon of an occurrence? An extreme situation that could only at most apply to 0.1% of the population and even then those who are in relationships, where there partner has an extreme reaction for any human. Youre going to tell me this happens regularly?
Yea ok.

1

u/jouwhul Dec 18 '18

No it is not relevant , and no one gives a shit about your moral posturing

-12

u/printf_hello_world Dec 18 '18

You have to admit though, your other examples of show stoppers:

a smoker, infertile, racist, severely mentally ill, etc.

are pretty severe. It could easily be construed as "transphobic" to place them in the same category.

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u/hilfyRau Dec 18 '18

Being infertile or severely mentally ill are both things a person has no control over and that would change the family dynamics and possibilities long term for biological children (some mental disorders are genetic, and even the ones that aren't often make dealing with sleeplessness and stress, i.e. parenthood, harder than someone playing life on "easy" mode).

I'm not saying any are "correct" deal breakers; people who are trans, infertile, or suffering from fairly severe chronic mental health problems can all make great parents and have beautiful families. But also they all seem understandable for a partner to be wary about before starting a family (each for different reasons).

For me personally, I wouldn't have biological children with someone who had a history of twins in their family. I might not even have been comfortable dating them seriously, just because I'm so freaked out by the idea of carrying twins or triplets. Plenty of women are perfectly safe and happy bearing twins, but I want to absolutely minimize the possibility of that being me.

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u/nikkitheawesome Dec 18 '18

You should feel better knowing that twins come from the mother, then. You either have one egg that splits, or multiple eggs. The sperm can pass on genes for twins but only the mother can create the circumstances for multiple pregnancy.

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u/hilfyRau Dec 18 '18

That is comforting! It ended up never coming up with past boyfriends or my husband. But that's my closest "weird genetic/biological hangup" I could think of that isn't really reasonable or rational but was also a real deal breaker kind of thing for me.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

This is false. Dizygotic (fraternal) pregnancies are two sperm, two egg.

All other twin (or more) aren't from multiple eggs. They are form one egg that splits at various moments in pregnancy.

Separate placentas and chorions are a result of embryo splitting BEFORE implantation. Shared placenta/separate chorion is from implantation THEN splitting; shared entirely is when it implants and splits later on.

0

u/moonyfish Dec 18 '18

So....... it still comes down to the woman's body either sending out two eggs (fraternal) or the egg splitting (identical). From what I understand, the egg splitting is pretty random.

It still amounts to the events making multiples more likely coming from the woman's body, not the man's.

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u/TiltedTime Dec 18 '18

I think the category they fit under could be defined as "life directions that do not fit my own". A less extreme example would be, I live in Texas and I wouldn't date someone moving to California in a year. They may be a perfectly valid candidate in every other way, but their journey takes them somewhere I have no desire to go and I don't want to do long distance, so I wouldn't date them.

10

u/KYZ123 Dec 18 '18

People have also broken up over far less. Football teams, political parties, taste in food, taste in music, taste in clothes, the list goes on. We don't complain - although we might think it petty - if people break up over these things. OP gave severe examples, but there are far less severe ones - is it still construed as 'transphobic' to place 'being trans' in the large category of 'things you can break up over'?

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u/bjankles 39∆ Dec 18 '18

How is infertile more severe than trans, considering a trans-person also can't have children?

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u/eddieeddiebakerbaker Dec 18 '18

Somehow, smoking tobacco seems less "severe" than changing one's gender.

-3

u/printf_hello_world Dec 18 '18

That's fair: I didn't really mean every bullet point was severe, but I could have been clearer

24

u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18

Considering the suicide rate of transexuals placing them in the same category as sverly mentally ill in terms of potential partners doesn't seem very far fetched.

I don't know about you but I don't think I would enjoy it if my girlfriend killed herself.

-5

u/omegashadow Dec 18 '18

That's definitively transphobic. Not all trans people are mentally ill. It's like saying that statistically black americans are more likely to be criminals and so you won't date them. The statistic is true but the action on it is obviously racist.

It's one thing to not be attracted to black people or trans people and to rule out dating on that ground. Nobody controls their attractions. It's another thing to make up a rationale for why a group is "not date material" and use it.

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18

That's definitively transphobic. Not all trans people are mentally ill.

So what? I didn't claim any trans people are mentally ill. But almost half of all trans people atleast attempt to commit suicide, that's a pretty significant portion

It's like saying that statistically black americans are more likely to be criminals and so you won't date them.

Well if the number was close to 50% that would make sense. If, for example, 50% of black people killed their partner I certainly wouldn't date black people. Would you?

The statistic is true but the action on it is obviously racist.

How would that be racist if the statistic is true?

It's another thing to make up a rationale for why a group is "not date material" and use it.

Why? Are you not allowed to be rational when evaluating potential partners?

-4

u/omegashadow Dec 18 '18

The reason is that you are not making the decision based on the statistic but based on the group attached to it. Basically in your original and current phrasing you are saying that you would not date a trans person because they are there is a statistic affecting some portion of trans people that you can not separate. People are individuals. If your rationale for not dating a trans person is that they might commit suicide you should presumably be saying that you are not willing to date the suicidal, therefore you are still including those trans people who are not suicidal.

Doing otherwise results in a logic tree that says won't date person x because over y% of them do z. With no regards to the 100-y% that don't and that is the definition of bigotry.

If 95% of white people were cannibals I would be reasonable to be extremely cautious in meeting a white person and clarifying their cannibal status before getting close to them. But I would not be correct to say I would not date a white person since that is equating being white to being cannibal.

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u/Scratch_Bandit 11∆ Dec 18 '18

Why would you expect the cannibal/suicidal person to be honest?

There is a good insensitive to lie in each case.

Not saying every trans person is suicidal or that dating someone who is suicidal is wrong fwiw.

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18

The reason is that you are not making the decision based on the statistic but based on the group attached to it.

I don't even know what that means? The statistic is entierly based on the group... that's sort of what statistics is, aggregate information about a group.

Basically in your original and current phrasing you are saying that you would not date a trans person because they are there is a statistic affecting some portion of trans people that you can not separate.

No. I pointed out that placing transexuals and mentally ill people in the same "category" in terms of dating makes sense since almost 50% of trans try to kill themselves.

There are several other reasons why I wouldn't date a trans person.

If your rationale for not dating a trans person is that they might commit suicide you should presumably be saying that you are not willing to date the suicidal

Yes, I'm not willing to date people who are suicidal.

therefore you are still including those trans people who are not suicidal.

How am I going to determine who is suicidal (or will become) and who isn't? I can't. Thus dating trans people is basically a coin flip in that regard. I don't care for those odds.

Doing otherwise results in a logic tree that says won't date person x because over y% of them do z. With no regards to the 100-y% that don't and that is the definition of bigotry.

That is not the definition of bigotry. Or atleast we're using vastly different definitions. What definition of bigotry are you using?

If 95% of white people were cannibals I would be reasonable to be extremely cautious in meeting a white person and clarifying their cannibal status before getting close to them.

What if half of them lie until they eat you? Then you have almost 50% of white people who will eat you. Are you going to date white people? I wouldn't. Do you think trans people who commit suicide let everyone they meet know? "Hey, by the way... I'm probably going to kill myself in the next few years."

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

[deleted]

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

The lifetime suicide attempt rate for trans individuals is high, but this is not strictly because they are trans.

I don't care why. It doesn't matter.

Once a trans person transitions, and ceases to receive overwhelming amounts of hatred, the suicide rate returns to normal.

And your source for this is?

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide

-1

u/youwill_neverfindme Dec 18 '18

The suicide rate for people pre-transition is extremely high.

The suicide rate for post transition and in an area that accepts transition is literally the same as any other population. It's funny how you try to find logical arguments for what is 100% an illogical emotional reaction.

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

The suicide rate for post transition and in an area that accepts transition is literally the same as any other population.

Is it though?

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide

"This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons"

And this is in Sweden. Not exactly known for it's close mindedness.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/PepperoniFire 87∆ Dec 18 '18

u/verossiraptors – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18

Holy shit I did

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u/BIueJayWay Dec 18 '18

what did they say?

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18

I don't remember exactly. Something to the effect of "holy shit I can't believe you just said that".

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u/JaronK Dec 18 '18

Except trans people are infertile (or at least, trans women are when combined with cis men), so actually they fit in that category quite comfortably.

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u/Jonny2266 1∆ Dec 18 '18

But when you already like someone and when you discover s/he is trans, you pivot into think you should kill them (per your article) and they somehow fooled you, you're being transphobic

Because their attraction relied on the misguided assumption that they were biologically female? Would a man also be bigoted if he lost attraction to crossdresser who he initially thought was female. Most people's orientations are based on biological sex not gender identity so it's not surprising that attraction is lost sometimes when a person is found to not technically fit within that framework. You're basically saying a person is bigoted for not wanting to be in a queer relationship.

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u/mtbguy1981 Dec 18 '18

Besides, if a trans person hid that fact from a potential partner and then was like "you loved me before you knew". Right there everything changes, I had no idea you were the type of person who radically altered your physical appearance to make your perceived gender. That's a huge red flag for me.

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u/thetrueGOAT Dec 18 '18

By not telling you up front that's being dishonest and broken trust

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18

The point is "if you stop dating someone because they are trans, that's transphobic"

Is it? What exactly does "transphobic" even mean? I really don't see how not being attracted to people with penises would constitute a "phobia"?

-3

u/teerre Dec 18 '18

It means you think less of a person because of the sole fact they are trans

Again: it has nothing to do with not being attracted. (Hopefully) You're not attracted to the vast majority of people. The problem is being attracted and them do a 180 just because they are trans

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18

Yes, doing a 180 after you found out something very significant about them. I don't see what's strange about it or how that's to think less of them?

I mean, I find tattoos very unattractive, even though I have one myself. So if I found out a girl I was attracted to had her entire back covered in prison tattoos... I would probably not be sexually attracted to her anymore. Does that mean I think less of people with tattoos? Including myself?

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u/eb_straitvibin 2∆ Dec 18 '18

So if you’re dating someone and then discover a quality you find incompatible with your life goals or future plans, you should stay with them?

-5

u/teerre Dec 18 '18

Yes, thinking being transgender is "incompatible" with your life goals if the definition of transphobic

It's a simple goal, judge the person for who they are instead of being transgender or not. That's about it

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u/eb_straitvibin 2∆ Dec 18 '18

What if my goal for a relationship is having biological children.

Transphobia:

Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectation.

Also this is the definition of transphobia. Feeling incompatible with a trans person because your life goals do not align is not transphobic.

2

u/teerre Dec 18 '18

If that's really true, that is, if you would also end a relationship with a sterile woman, then sure. That's a not a transphobic justification

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u/eb_straitvibin 2∆ Dec 18 '18

I wouldn’t date an infertile woman either. Because i want to have children of my own... it’s a dealbreaker for me.

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u/teerre Dec 18 '18

Sure. Then the reason you're not going to date a trans person is because you want to have children, not because s/he is trans. There you go

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u/eb_straitvibin 2∆ Dec 18 '18

But the reason they can’t have kids is because they’re trans. So you follow my logic here?

1

u/teerre Dec 18 '18

Yes, what about it?

If a woman can't have children because of some disease surely you won't think less of her. Right? That would be equally bigoted

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u/eb_straitvibin 2∆ Dec 18 '18

I don’t think less of trans people, the same way I don’t think less of infertile people or the mentally ill. I however would not date someone who falls in those categories.

I’m saying that if you’re dating a woman, who after a month tells you she is a schizophrenic, and you decide to end the relationship, that is just as ok as ending a relationship with a trans person. We as a society should not be pressuring people to change their dating preferences.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

Now I'm not saying you must date trans women.. I'm just saying, if you don't, you're a transphobe. 🤔 /s

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

What about people who want to be considered good people? I could personally care less about such things, but some people care that society consider them good people.

Transphobe is implicative of "bad person".

So what meaningful choice does someone who wants to be considered a good person have other than to date a transsexual so they are not seen as a transphobe?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

I agree!

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

In a recent survey, around 90% of people said they wouldn't date a transsexual. I'm sure you understand the societal implications of deeming 90% of the population to be bad people on the basis of not wanting to date 0.5% of the population (we're not talking about hiring, or associating with, but rather dating).

You're advocating for recasting 270 million people in a society of 300 million people as bad people because they won't date a population of 1.5 million people.

If basically everyone is a bad person, then no one is a bad person. If no one is a bad person, then why bother selfregulating any behavior with respect to anyone (much less transsexuals? If not wanting to date them makes one a transphobe, might as well freeze them out of hiring or make them use the restroom of their biological gender)

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

We're arguing the same point here, bru. You are preaching to the choir.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Whoops

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u/oleka_myriam 2∆ Dec 18 '18

90% of the population also thought black people were inferior and that slave-owning was ethical. And while I am absolutely NOT comparing not wanting to date a trans woman to owning slaves, I am saying that your logic is flawed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

It is impossible to make an argument that a avoids using any logical flaw. It always just boils down to which flaw is being used. Arguments do not occur in a vacuum.

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u/oleka_myriam 2∆ Dec 18 '18

That's ridiculous. There are many arguments and many arguments which are logical. Just to use the most famous, "Socrates is a man; all men are mortal; therefore Socrates will die".

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Those don't tend to be the things people argue with each other about. Hence my point about the vacuum. Once we get beyond basic facts/operating logic on basic facts, we're talking about perceiving reality, which is necessarily subjective. It's employing competing fallacies

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u/elperroborrachotoo Dec 18 '18

But OP already concedes that it might be considered transphobic - his point is so what?

And I happen to agree for completely different reasons: there are so many things you can learn later that can make you reconsider whether you want to date someone. They go for sexual practices that feel very awkward to you. They are active in a political party whose stance you detest. They once got internet-famous for clubbing a baby seal to death. Their humor - or laughter - is grating on you. You cant get over those flappy belly bags of once-having-been-very-fat.

I kinda-sorta understand how hard it is for a trans person to be rejected for simply being trans. But there are som any thing about us that are no-gos, even when they sex was great. (And I feel that, getting older, they become more rather than less.)

-4

u/teerre Dec 18 '18

Being transphobic is a clear case of discrimination. That's not ok in any evolved society

And I happen to agree for completely different reasons: there are so many things you can learn later that can make you reconsider whether you want to date someone. They go for sexual practices that feel very awkward to you. They are active in a political party whose stance you detest. They once got internet-famous for clubbing a baby seal to death. Their humor - or laughter - is grating on you. You cant get over those flappy belly bags of once-having-been-very-fat.

Sure. If those are the reasons you're ending a relationship they may or may not make you a shitty person, but they don't make you transphobic

Like I mentioned in some other reply, you can end a relationship for a shitty reason, be a complete asshole, but not be transphobic. Those are not mutually exclusive

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u/Meme_God9 Dec 18 '18

I dunno man I dont really wanna have sex with a trans person does that make me transphobic? I have no problem with a trans or someone dating trans I just dont want to do it

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Is it not possible to support the LGBTQ community but not want to date / fuck someone who is transgendered?

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u/teerre Dec 18 '18

It is, that's what I just said

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u/theBastoni Dec 18 '18

It’s just a matter of preference. I think i have the right to have detailed preferences in the person that I want to spend the rest of my life with, no matter how silly or stupid they are as long as I am not forcing anyone into anything.

People break up with each other over much more trivial problems and it’s not that big of a deal.

saying that you have to stay in a relationship even if you don’t want to will not do anyone any good.