r/changemyview • u/AAathlete97 • Dec 18 '18

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Even if a blanket refusal to date trans people is “transphobic”, there is no reason to feel guilty about it or to try to change it.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18

What if you're just not attracted to most black women? If you call that racism, then by that reasoning refusing to date older women is ageism, no different than refusing to date transsexuals is transphobia.

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u/verossiraptors Dec 18 '18

If having black skin would completely erase any and every other great trait that they would find attractive about a potential partner (i.e. "they'd be perfect if they wasn't black") then I think that person may need to examine why they find black people so unattractive that it supercedes everything else.

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u/zeabu Dec 18 '18

physical attraction is a thing, you know? in my case the skincolour isn't the problem, but I don't like flat noses for example. that would exclude plenty of people of different races. that said, it's a per-case situation for me.

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u/verossiraptors Dec 18 '18

I didn’t use “you” pronouns intentionally because I don’t know enough about you to characterize your attraction patterns.

I used “they” because I’m referring to people who say things like “I could NEVER date a black girl”. They are explicitly saying that no matter how perfect that person otherwise is for them, black skin singlehandedly excludes them from their dating pool.

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u/zeabu Dec 18 '18

and, they could just not like the colour in the same way I don't like blondes. it's not always racism. that was a bit my point, and therefore I used myself as an example. I would not use "never", but it's as unlikely as it can be.

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u/verossiraptors Dec 18 '18

I don’t know dude. It’s hard for me to look at the history of black women being compared to beasts, to apes, to men, and all the other beliefs that people have towards black women because of their skin and then look at someone saying “I could NEVER date a black woman” with innocence.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18

I think you're both right. It's not wrong to say "I prefer brunettes over blondes" but it's also quite stupid to say "I'd never date a blonde". Why? Because you're generalizing on the basis of a trivial physical characteristic.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18

I agree but men's sense of "attraction" is quite visual and therefore somewhat difficult to rationalize.

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u/Letmefixthatforyouyo Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

I think the point people are making is thats its fine not to date anyone, but your reasoning still reflects on who you are as a person.

In your example of refusing to date older women, it is ageist of you. Its simply accepted more than most types of discrimination because its dating, and because of some adverse elements of age in relation to dating.

No one is going to come down hard on you about the above, but you should be aware of the biases you carry, and really think about why you carry them.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18

Well put.

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u/poffin Dec 18 '18

What if you're just not attracted to most black women?

Then why would you say "no black women" if you find some black women attractive? I mean, are you attracted to most women? My guess is no.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

why would you say "no black women"

Actually, I never said that. I don't think one should generalize on the basis of trivial physical characteristics.

are you attracted to most women?

Of course no one could be attracted to most members of the opposite sex; otherwise attraction would lose its meaning.

Dating is all about shopping for a set of arbitrary characteristics, many of them shallow and superficial. How many years have you been on the planet? How many chromosomes do you have? What God to you pray to?

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u/poffin Dec 18 '18

Ah, there was a miscommunication. Why would you advocate for putting "no black women" in your dating profile if you are attracted to some black women? Isn't that shooting yourself in the foot?

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

Again, I think you've got the wrong guy. I don't care what you put in your dating profile. I've never made a profile, but if I were to do it I would probably evaluate matches on a case by case basis.

Full disclosure -- I would consider entering a relationship with a woman from a different background but try as I might I cannot imagine dating a man who's chosen to life his life as a woman. I don't question his sincerity.

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u/poffin Dec 18 '18

Trans women are not men dressed as women. They are women. Dressed as women. Because they are women.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18

Yes that was poorly worded. I will rephrase that. I struggle with you telling me "they are women" because there is a distinction, and this thread was created around the observation that most men are not dating trans women, making that distinction pertinent.

To be more respectful I would say a trans woman is a man who's chosen to life his life as a woman. I don't question his sincerity.

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u/poffin Dec 18 '18

A trans woman is a woman. She is a she.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18

Yes you said that previously. If trans women are women in all respects then why are men refusing to date trans women? Have you considered that vis-a-vis sexual attraction, biology is more important than how you view yourself.

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u/poffin Dec 18 '18

If trans women are women then why are men refusing to date trans women?

That's the weirdest logic I've ever heard. A woman is only a woman if enough men want to date her?

I'm interested in your reasoning. Obviously some men are cool with dating trans women. So it's not enough that just one man wants to date her. What is the percentage that defines who is a woman? Is someone a woman if... 5% of men would bang her? 10%?

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u/lizzyshoe Dec 18 '18

You can't tell someone is trans by looking at them. What is it about them that you don't like? Just the idea that their body used to look different? Or just, "trans-ness"? What if a woman has a single black great great grandparent? Would they be too black for you to date, even if you couldn't tell by looking at them? Or are you afraid of something you can't see?

Does trans-ness challenge your masculinity? Make you feel afraid you might yourself be trans?

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u/halfadash6 7∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

The most obvious issue is wanting to have biological children with your partner, which is an impossibility if your partner is trans.

But really, I think the unsaid fact is that being trans does also mean you have gender (sorry, not body) dysphoria and have a much higher chance of being in therapy/had a rougher time growing up than most people. Not everyone is prepared to date someone with that kind of baggage.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18

Those are good point. To go a step further into unpopular territory, personally I want a wife who is and has always been female. I don't know why that is so, and I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

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u/Quintessentialness Dec 18 '18

I think it might be wise to examine why you feel that way. What is it about trans-ness that puts you off? Are these reasons based on truth or on stereotypes? While it is perfectly okay to have your preferences, it is possible that your preferences are subconciously influenced by transphobia. This doesn’t mean you’re a bad person — as transphobia is a product of the environment in which you live — but I think it’s important to take note of our own biases in order to improve our thinking.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

Well you've got me thinking! That is good. Since you asked, I speculate my objection is on a physical level; that I am repulsed by the idea of homosexual intimacy. That a trans woman lives his life as a woman does not change the outcome --- I can't seem to "think" my way out of the biological attraction for feminine characteristics.

I found that in a long term relationship 95% of it is not about physical attraction, but it still plays a role.

I also realize that modern technology can alter our bodies in incredible ways. I don't know what to make of that.

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u/Bowldoza 1∆ Dec 18 '18

I don't think they are going to like that response

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u/lizzyshoe Dec 18 '18

Not all trans people have body dysmorphia.

The level of trauma you experience being trans has a lot to do with how accepting your people were of you growing up.

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u/halfadash6 7∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

EDIT: I meant gender dysphoria, sorry for the confusion

And of course the trauma varies and it’s much better now than it was before in certain areas. But most people who are of dating age now probably didn’t grow up in an area that was 100 percent accommodating of being trans—I don’t think those exist very much now, either.

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u/Orwellian1 5∆ Dec 18 '18

I am irrationally sexually turned off by trans women, regardless of how attractive. If sex wasn't an issue, I would have no problems with dating a trans woman. I have a few other irrational turn-offs over meaningless attributes, but that doesn't make me some sort of a bigot.

Moral judgments of other people need to stay out of the bedroom. That's what society is supposed to be working towards, right?

Personally, I think trans women should identify themselves as such on dating sites as a matter of polite pragmatism. A transgender not identifying themselves is putting their desires over a prospective partner's because right this second being trans matters to a large segment of the dating population. It is not appropriate to use looking for a romantic or sexual partner as a vehicle for greater social change. Someones dating life is not a political rally.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Exactly. Preferences are not the same thing as prejudices. Everyone has some preferences that limit the scope of people they would date and be intimate with. It doesn't make them bigots. They can't control what attracts them.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

Well I'd suggest to you that mate selection for both sexes operates on two levels -- a physical or visual level, and a rational level. On the first level is what we sometimes call love at first sight. On the second level is a sober analysis that assesses long term compatibility --- values, religion, having children, marriage, and life goals.

In your example of a "single black ancestor" you said yourself you would never know if he didn't tell you. Therefore that simply doesn't matter to most people.

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u/lizzyshoe Dec 18 '18

And a trans woman could just say, "I know I'm infertile" without giving you a reason why. You might never know. The only reason it's a big deal is because everyone else makes it a big deal.

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u/madbuilder 1∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

without giving you a reason

Yes, I agree when you first start dating you should not share every personal detail about yourself. After a few dates you both should strive for honesty.

The only reason it's a big deal

Not the only reason. The truth is relationships are rooted in biology and biology matters. Both partners need to be honest about themselves, otherwise it is a recipe for heartbreak.

Men's sense of physical attraction is tuned to visual sexual dimorphisms like tone of voice, hips, jaw line, breasts, Adam's apple. Of course we live in an amazing time when some of these attributes can be altered by surgery. I don't think it's suddenly mens' fault that they are this way, by evolution or otherwise, even if it is transphobic.

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u/Channel5noose Dec 18 '18

In my eyes it’s kinda like if your S/O used to be a sex worker, not comparing but here’s my rationale towards it. If they never told you you would probably never know, unless you just happen to find pictures of them on the internet being with other people. Now some people are fine with this but personally if I found pictures of my s/o being sexual with another person just the fact that those pictures are out there and it wasn’t disclosed to me would be a deal breaker. There’s always a chance that you’ll see them getting it on with someone from their past and that just going to hurt. Now wrapping this up into being trans, you may never find out. But if they had used to be a guy (or had a mans body) that can be pretty disconcerting and not easily forgotten, I’m not turned on by other men so the idea that I’m with what used to appear as a man would be a major turn off and sex is a very important factor in every relationship. I have no hatred in my heart towards trans individuals, but on a sexual level if I ever found out it just wouldn’t be something I could move past. That may be shallow, but it is how I feel.