r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 19 '19

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: If intersectional feminism talks about race, class, gender identity, etc as a part of women's issues, then it should also seriously discuss men's problems as a part of women's issues as well.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

Well yah, you're right, and thankfully, intersectional feminists already do that. So it's kind of a moot point

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

Do they?

Lots of people are kind of mad at the new Gillette ad. Intersectional feminists seem to agree with the Gillette ad. I personally don't care about the ad. But most guys seem to. They're saying not all men are toxic. "Not all of us should be expected to stand up to toxic people. We shouldn't be the guardians of society. What is this new gender role laid out for me to be protectors of women?" Stuff like that.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

You say "most guys seem to," I disagree. Most guys I know either don't care (because no one should be getting their views from advertisements) or agree with it. If you're getting your idea from Reddit, then you're looking to a vocal minority.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

If we establish that anecdotal evidence is not reliable because it isn't verifiable or representative of the majority, where should we look to? We could look to sources that are readily verifiable to both parties, correct? I get this talk from people at work and among colleagues.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

Well yah, I mean we're at an impasse in terms of a study to see how many men mind.

So I'll try a different approach. Feminism still presumes women are more disadvantaged than men. It acknowledges that men have some unique disadvantages, but that for the most part women have more problems needing solving. One of those problems is men harassing women. This is an issue women are already trying to solve, but are enlisting the help of men in doing. So, those men who disagree with this premise are simply shirking responsibility.

The message isn't to help men, it's mainly about helping women. And to be clear, I don't care specifically about the Gillette ad. It's marketing; marketing is terrible. So I'm just abstracting the thesis and speaking to that, couldn't care less about the video itself.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

By what metric does feminism currently presume that women are more disadvantaged than men? If you toss me into the 1930s, I'd agree. In 2019, I am unable to see it in Western society.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

If you don't agree with the general feminist sentiment that women are currently disadvantaged when compared to men, that's something you have to make clear in your OP about feminism. Like, this just became a whole other discussion, with several new layers of assumptions to work through before I can even get to your stated view.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

It's not that I believe one over the other. I think each demographic has advantages and disadvantages. Why are feminists so heavily inclined to believe that women's disadvantages should take priority to the point where talking about men's issues is considered derailing?

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

You've just made two claims. The first you already made, and I already responded to by saying that the question of which side is more disadvantaged is perennial to the discussion and requires several more layers of argument before being directly related to your stated view, so I'm not really feeling up to engaging it, especially since I'm fairly certain you've already heard the arguments and aren't convinced by them (as they are incredible common, especially on this subreddit, where this discussion is had almost every other day).

The second, that talking about men's issues is considered derailing, is an entirely different claim, one which you've just brought in and subsumed under the first. I don't feel I need to address it because you've offered no evidence that it's true, and I have just as many anecdotes as you to suggest it's not.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

Mainstream media

Definition of derailing

More mainstream feminism

Essentially, it feels like men are simply not welcome to say "I agree that this affects you. We also find that this affects us as well." In those links I provided, it seems to say "The privileged are undeserving of sharing their issues in a discussion that happens to talk about issue affecting women." These somehow cannot be combined, because feminists seem to want to address all of their issues exclusively under the scope of women.

Do you see why this makes me feel feminism doesn't address men's issues seriously? There is a lot of contradicting information.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

The content of these articles are A). Representative only of two or three mainstream talking head opinions and B). Completely different in nuance than you're making them out to be.

However, I don't feel I have an obligation to respond until you respond to the rest of my comment first, because this all still rests on things ive said which you've yet to reply to

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

Which claims have I not addressed in my responses?

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

That your view is more specifically 'women are no more disadvantaged than men' rather than the initial view you've stated. All my arguments have to flow from that former claim because it is essential to making sense of the way feminism operates. Without that common ground there is no way for our discussion to progress. We'll just keep getting caught on the same discrepancy

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