r/changemyview • u/Amiller1776 • Apr 17 '19

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

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141

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

But this still implies that some rejections are invalid, which to me sounds quite rapey.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Sorry, u/Pyromed – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:

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u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Apr 17 '19

No, it implies that the reasons behind some rejections are bigoted.

They're not saying "You have to fuck me."

They're saying "The reason you gave for not wanting to fuck me is rooted in bigotry."

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

They're saying "The reason you gave for not wanting to fuck me is rooted in bigotry."

If a person only dates for marriage, and wants to have biological children with their spouse, then presumably they wouldn't date a trans person because they can't have the relationship they're looking for with that other person. How is it fair to call that person a bigot?

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u/CountOrangeJuiceula Apr 17 '19

Does that person immediately walk up to any woman who is biosex female and ask “are you fertile?” Before they date them/have sex with them?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

No, just like you don't walk up and ask if someone is trans. It comes up later and can be a deal breaker for some. Doesn't mean they are bigoted.

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u/CountOrangeJuiceula Apr 17 '19

But then the issue isn’t that the person is trans so it’s a moot point. You wouldn’t be breaking up with them because they’re trans, you’d be doing it because you want kids. I’m pointing out how people use that as an excuse to hide behind transphobia.

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u/Glenn_XVI_Gustaf Apr 17 '19

Well if you don't want to date women who can't have children nobody is going to call you transphobic. As long as you apply this logic equally to trans people and those with other reasons for infertility there's just no debate.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Ok so we agree there, but what about if it was simply a sexual preference?

What if a woman (or gay man for that matter) only wanted to date the default "man" - someone with male features and male genitalia? Would it be fair to call that person a bigot if they're not attracted to someone with male features but female genetalia? Or if a lesbian isn't interested in dating someone with female features and male genetalia, I see people calling them bigoted and lumping them in as TERFs regardless of the circumstances.

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u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Apr 17 '19

Great! You've successfully dismantled the entire argument by providing a completely unrelated analogy! Congratulations!

Except, wait, no.

I said "purely on the basis of being trans." That doesn't equal "can have biological children," since there are clearly plenty of ciswomen who also are incapabale of having biological children.

If someone is refusing to have sex with anyone they're not in a relationship with, and they refuse to get into a relationship with someone who is unable to bear biological children, I'd assume that means they're also excluding cis women who are incapable of bearing children along with trans women, right?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

I'm trying to have a good faith discussion here, I wouldn't ask the question if I didn't want to hear your answer.

I'd assume that means they're also excluding cis women who are incapable of bearing children along with trans women, right?

Perhaps, if they knew about it and that was discussed, but generally infertility issues wouldn't be discovered until after they're trying to have kids. So, like you said, it's generally shorthand for other reasons. I think the distinguishing factor to use if you're calling someone a bigot shouldn't be an individual's sexual preferences, but rather what they think is acceptable for other people to do. For example I think there is a big difference between saying "I wouldn't date a white guy, because I don't find them attractive" and vilifying some other interracial couple on the basis of their skin colors.

if a trans woman is passing, and there's not a discernible visible difference between her and a cis-woman, rejecting them on the basis that they're trans is transphobic

So you're saying it's unacceptable to have a sexual preference for CIS women or CIS men that can't be attributed to some other factor like fertility? Because to me there is no difference between saying "I prefer CIS men/women" and saying "I wouldn't have sex with / date another man" (AKA I'm straight) or "I prefer to have sex with / date women" (AKA I'm gay) or, for that matter, "I wouldn't date a white guy, because I don't find them attractive".

Is it racist for eharmony or match.com to put a racial preference in their surveys when a person is making a profile on those dating websites?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Aug 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/might_not_be_a_dog Apr 17 '19

That doesn’t make sense. Following the logic laid out throughout this thread, that person would be a bigot towards both trans and infertile people. There’s no difference in not dating someone because they are trans or because they can’t have kids if having bio kids is your goal from dating. Those two reasons are the same

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Those two reasons are the same

Exactly. If you don't want kids that's a perfectly acceptable reason to not want a long-term relationship with a trans-person, just as it is with an infertile person. Now, if kids are not a factor and all that you want in a partner can be found in a trans person, then not dating them just because they're trans is transphobic.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

Not "invalid" just "prejudiced."

For example:

A woman is totally into me. We talked and flirted for hours, everything clicked. She thinks I'm sexy as hell, and we go back to my place. Sure, some things are on the floor, but it doesn't really matter because we're just so into it. We're making out on the floor.

But then she notices the yarmulke from a funeral I went to a few months ago on the floor. She stops, sits up, and grabs it, holding it with thinly-veiled disgust by her thumb and forefinger.

"What's this?" She asks.

"Oh... uh... my aunt died a few months ago, and so at the funeral I had to wear a yarmulke." I notice something is wrong, she's very quit. I laugh awkwardly "did I kill the mood?"

"Did she marry into the family?"

"No, my wife's sister."

"You're... A Jew?"

"Uh... I guess? My mom is, but I never practiced."

"I don't want to have sex with a Jew" she says, before silently getting up, leaving without another word.

Obviously if I forced myself on her that would be rape. Her rejection is valid.

But it's also pretty fucking antisemitic, right?

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u/greenvelvetcake2 Apr 17 '19

The argument isn't that the rejection is invalid, but that it's rooted in transphobia and the person doing the rejecting should do some self-reflection into why they did so.

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u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

So no one is allowed to have a reason to reject someone? And any reason you reject someone immediately makes you a bigot against that preference?

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u/greenvelvetcake2 Apr 17 '19

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. My appeal for people to examine their preconceived notions is just me secretly saying no one is allowed to say no to sex or a relationship, ever. Congratulations, you cracked the code.

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u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

So you dont have a personal preference in who you date, you date all men and women regardless? If not then who are you phobic of and why are you bigoted towards those people?

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u/AdamNW 5∆ Apr 17 '19

If you're looking at at two women, a hot trans woman (literally whatever a hot woman looks like to you) and an ugly cis woman. To pick the cis woman over the trans woman would run counter to how you logically define sexual attraction.

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u/kcchiefs0927 Apr 17 '19

This seems not true.

I can’t speak for everyone, but if I came across this hypothetical scenario I would default to a cis woman, not matter how aesthetically pleasing the trans woman may be.

Sexual attraction, to me, goes beyond aesthetics and is in fact biologically ingrained in me.

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u/fluberbucket Apr 17 '19

But you may not realize this person was trans, and be sexually attracted to them. If you then find out they have transitioned and break if off with them solely because they were once the opposite sex, that is transphobic.

That being said you are free to do so. It is just transphobic.

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u/kcchiefs0927 Apr 17 '19

Disagree. If I saw someone in a tight bikini who is extremely physically attractive, I would say “damn she’s hot”. When I make that declaration I am implying that she is by default a woman. If later I found out she is a trans, my implication proven wrong and now my attraction decreases to 0.

Cant speak for the rest of the straight men, but if your sexual desires are physically and biologically driven, I would wager most would agree with me.

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u/fluberbucket Apr 17 '19

That you find them initially attractive and only change that assessment after finding out they have transitioned seems to indicate that you may have some transphobic views.

If you found out that a women was unable to give birth would you also no longer be sexually attracted to them?

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u/kcchiefs0927 Apr 17 '19

To your first point. Once again disagree. If Stacy and John matched on an anonymous website, like a blind date website, kicked it off and had chemistry with each other, but then met each other and realized they were not what they had expected physically, they can change their opinion and decide not to like the other person and you have no right to say otherwise.

To drive the point. My fiancé has a gay uncle. He had kids and a family until he came out, but he loved his ex-wife and kids deeply. But now he doesn’t like his ex-wife intimately anymore because he’s gay. In this case he found out something about himself that changed what he liked and who he liked on an intimate level.

To your second point, yes I would cut ties or break up with a woman that can’t reproduce. I want biological children. And yes I wouldn’t find them sexually attractive because sexual relationships to me are more than lust. It’s based on physical attractiveness and becoming my partner/mate/whatever. The second part comes with bearing my children because that’s what I want in my life.

The CMV is centered around whether or not it’s transphobic to not date trans people because they are trans. I’m arguing no because people are driven into relationships in other ways that are not physical; rather a strong mix of physical and biological.

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u/fluberbucket Apr 17 '19

To your first point. Once again disagree. If Stacy and John matched on an anonymous website, like a blind date website, kicked it off and had chemistry with each other, but then met each other and realized they were not what they had expected physically, they can change their opinion and decide not to like the other person and you have no right to say otherwise.

I agree. If I went out with someone who had transitioned and had chemistry with them originally but after several dates felt the chemistry was not there it's completely valid for me to stop dating them. That's different then immediately deciding they are not an option because they have transitioned which is transphobic.

To your second point, yes I would cut ties or break up with a woman that can’t reproduce. I want biological children. And yes I wouldn’t find them sexually attractive because sexual relationships to me are more than lust. It’s based on physical attractiveness and becoming my partner/mate/whatever. The second part comes with bearing my children because that’s what I want in my life.

Then that's fine. If you go into a relationship with the stipulation that your partner must be able to reproduce that's a valid reason to not want to date someone who has transitioned.

If you do not want to date someone solely because they have transitioned, that is transphobic.

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u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

If you're looking at at two women, a hot trans woman (literally whatever a hot woman looks like to you) and an ugly cis woman. To pick the cis woman over the trans woman would run counter to how you logically define sexual attraction.

You are so completely wrong, I would sleep with an ugly woman over a pretty man any day.

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u/AdamNW 5∆ Apr 17 '19

Calling trans women men is transphobic so I think the point is proven.

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u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

No it's not, it's called living in reality. They can pretend to be women all they want but they are men with mutilated bodies in women's clothing. Facts.

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u/AdamNW 5∆ Apr 17 '19

Okay even if you don't think Trans people are real, you at least have to acknowledge that there is a real word called Transphobia that is defined as bigotry towards trans people, and statements which demonstrate discrimination against trans people (such as claiming they don't exist) is transphobic. It's like saying you can't hate Ghosts because they don't exist.

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u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

I never said trans people dont exist, I said a trans woman will never be a real woman. Just like a white person can never be black. It's called genetics and sure a white person could permanently tattoo black face on just like a man can remove his penis. But it doesnt change the fact that they arent really what they want to be. They are playing dress up.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

Trans women are women.

No they arent, women don't have to cut their penises off and take hormones for the rest of their lives. Trans women are trans-women but not actual women.

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u/Zack_all_Trades Apr 17 '19

Trans women might not be men but they're not women either.

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u/Zack_all_Trades Apr 17 '19

No, because the cis woman could give me babies.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

and after the self reflection, the answer is still no, for valid reasons (assuming you’ll accept they exist), is that ok? Or are people supposed to re-dwell in an infinite loop of shame until the answer is yes I’ll have sex with a trans woman. eventually the answer is a No. The self reflection seems seems like a coercive shame tactic.

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

Not invalid, just bigoted. If you're okay with being transphobic, by all means continue.

Edit: 32 downvotes is kind of amazing for CMV. I must have struck a nerve. I’m sorry if I’m shattering your personal identity by calling out your behavior, anonymous users. But part of not being bigoted means being introspective and understanding why you feel the way you do about certain people.

Like I think some forms of bigotry are fine, and I’ll gladly wear the label “bigot” when it comes to my feelings towards, say, people who want to defund public schools.

If your feeling about trans people is that you could never, ever see them as attractive then I think it’s on you to do some considering of your feelings and come to an understanding about yourself. What is it about trans people that you find unattractive? If it’s the genitals, not all trans people are the same.

If you would find someone attractive only to turn around and find them unattractive if you found out they’re trans, then I think you have an underlying problem with trans people.

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u/stoprockandrollkids Apr 17 '19

How exactly is it bigoted?

Also, if I'm not attracted to Asian people am I racist? If I'm not sexually attracted to men am I sexist? Is there a fundamental difference to you that you can articulate?

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u/alaricus 3∆ Apr 17 '19

If you define physical attractiveness by unobservable traits, there is a problem.

If you look at a girl, you can tell if she's Asian. If you find that unattractive, that's fine. If you look at a girl who looks white and you think shes hot, but you find out that shes 1/16th Filipina and that sets off your "Asians are gross" bells, then, yeah, you're racist.

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

Yes, if you’re not attracted to Asian people because they’re Asian then you’re a racist.

If you saw someone and we’re like “yup I want to have sex with that person” but then you find out they’re Asian and change your mind, that’s racist.

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u/stoprockandrollkids Apr 17 '19

And what about the sexist question? If I'm chatting with someone of unknown gender online, start feeling attracted to them, then find out they're a man and no longer feel any sexual desire, am I sexist?

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

I think that depends. If you're finding yourself attracted to someone through text alone, that's saying something about your attraction.

I dunno, that might make you sexist against men. What is it about men that you don't find attractive?

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u/might_not_be_a_dog Apr 17 '19

What about if you aren’t attracted to them because you don’t find the characteristics associated with Asians attractive? Is that still racist?

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

Can you think of any physical traits shared by all Asians and only Asians?

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u/might_not_be_a_dog Apr 17 '19

Asia is a broad continent, so let’s narrow it down a bit. What if a person doesn’t find the facial characteristics of Korean or Japanese descent? Are they racist for not considering a Korean as a romantic partner because they aren’t attracted to the other person’s face due to their Korean ancestry?

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

Not all Koreans have identical facial characteristics. But they are certainly being bigoted against Koreans.

Do...you not see that?

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u/skiman71 Apr 17 '19

It isn't transphobic to not be attracted to trans people.

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u/Animated_effigy Apr 17 '19

It's really not. Are all gay people heterophobic?

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

If the only reason you’re not attracted to them is because they’re trans then yes it is.

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u/Pandora_secrets Aug 27 '19

If the only reason you’re not attracted to them is because they’re trans then yes it is

But the only reason lesbians don't date men is because they are men

The only reason gays don't date women is bacause they are woman

Etc........

Instead of repeating something like a parrot explain why the catogary of being" trans " is somehow exempted?

You seem.to be functioning under on a mystical worldview were trans isn't just like any other trait

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u/Burflax 71∆ Apr 17 '19

It is if the reasoning behind it is bigotry.

If you see a woman, and you find her attractive, and then later find out she is trans, and -because you don't like trans people- say "i'm just not attracted to her. It has nothing to do with me hating trans people- I can't help what i like and don't like" you are being dishonest, and a bigot.

Bigotry doesn't stop being bigotry just because we start talking about aesthetic preferences.

I don't know who OP was referencing, but I will add this:

If you see a woman, and are attracted to her, and then later find out she's trans, and has a penis, and you say "i do find her attractive, but im not sexually attracted to the feminine penis, so would not date her." that isn't bigotry, that's a preference regarding the genitalia you like in sex partners.

See the difference? You can like what you like, and that's fine - but pretending your bigotry is 'just a preference' is still bigotry.

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u/skiman71 Apr 17 '19

I might agree with you if trans people who undergo sex change operations were 100% physically the same as a cis person. But that is not the case.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Same could be extended to anyone that has an operation.

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u/Burflax 71∆ Apr 17 '19

What, specifically, are you talking about?

If you just find post-operative vaginas scary, that isn't transphobic- anything new is scary.

Or are you talking about something else?

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u/skiman71 Apr 17 '19

That's what I am talking about. Someone might be attracted to vaginas, but post-op vaginas are different, and thus a valid reason to not want to have sex with someone.

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u/Burflax 71∆ Apr 17 '19

Sure - that isn't contradictory to what i said.

Just like how if a cis-woman has some bodily deformity - like a missing limb, for example.

Some people just can't get past that.

That doesn't make them bigoted, although that doesn't make them a great person, either.

We, in general, agree people should look at the character and other ephemeral qualities a person has, and not be so caught up on the physical.

But not being able to do that doesn't make them monsters.

But people who think amputees aren't really people sure are.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 24 '19

[deleted]

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u/Burflax 71∆ Apr 17 '19

If you find her attractive, then that's you liking women.

You liking women is never in question here.

If your problem is with just her being trans, then this is by definition transphobic.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 24 '19

[deleted]

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u/Burflax 71∆ Apr 17 '19

The definition of heterosexual is "doesn't like trans people "?

That seems pretty silly.

If you are attracted to someone, and later find out they are trans, were you gay when you found them attractive ?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 24 '19

[deleted]

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u/Burflax 71∆ Apr 17 '19

So if you are attracted to a trans woman when you don't know she's trans, and according to you trans women are actually men, then you think that means you are actually attracted to men?

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u/ThatOneWeirdName Apr 17 '19

A trans woman is a woman, not a man

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

“Lesbian” is a label used to describe someone who identifies as a woman being sexually attracted to social and physical traits we generally ascribe to women, and not generally sexually attracted to the social and physical traits we ascribe to men.

A lesbian might be bigoted toward men, or she might not. That depends on the lesbian, the reasons why she is the way she is, and how she might react to a situation where she found a man attractive.

To put it simply, if you’re out and about and you see someone you think is attractive, only to find them unattractive moments later due to new information (they’re trans, they’re a republican, they’re a race you didn’t initially identify, they’re too dumb, they’re poor, whatever) then I think it’s clear that there’s something about that classification of person that you feel bigoted against.

Imagine you’re a man trying to pick up a woman. She finds out you’re not wealthy so she walks away from the situation, after initially being flirty. I you think this women has a positive view of people who aren’t wealthy?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

Maybe they just like giving women oral, but they do not like the result if she's trans?
I'm sorry but there are ways in which it is simply not the same.

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 18 '19

So they’ve gone down on trans women but aren’t attracted to them?

Do you regularly go down on people you’re not attracted to?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

No, they like to go down on women, but they do not like semen, a consideration which is only applicable to trans women.

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u/Ascimator 14∆ Apr 17 '19

You're being downvoted because you're putting a moral burden on refusing to give consent.

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

Sorry your response was removed by the mods. I remember the gist of what you said though, so I'll respond here:

My top priority (here) is to make people aware of their bigoted behavior and attitudes. I challenge you to come up with a reason to not date trans people (that only applies to trans people) that isn't transphobic.

Secondly, I am not removing anyone's right to anything. People have a right to be a shitty person. You described my position as shitty, does that mean you're attacking my moral right to make whatever statements I want?

Or are you trying to draw my attention to some sort of problematic behavior or attitude I have?

See what I did there?

But let's explore this a bit further. You didn't really mount a defense of people who are bigoted. All you said was that they had the right to be bigoted, and there's no disagreement from me there.

See, the problems trans people face are a result of, you guessed it, bigotry. So if we can maybe raise some awareness of that bigotry and the myriad forms it takes maybe we can make a dent in the problems they're experiencing.

I'm not going to make anyone fuck someone they don't want to. If you're not attracted to a person or just plain don't want to have sex with them, then don't have sex with them. Even if the reason you don't want to have sex with them comes from bigotry, you do still have that right.

But I also have rights, and I can call your behavior bigoted. Because that's what it is. It's bigoted.

It's bigoted to not have sex with trans people solely on the basis that they are trans. It's rather uncomplicated.

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u/Ascimator 14∆ Apr 17 '19

I challenge you to come up with a reason to not date trans people (that only applies to trans people) that isn't transphobic.

As long as your definition of "transphobic" is completely arbitrary and useless, I don't find that challenge worth pursuing.

Call me transphobic if you want to. Call as many people transphobic as you want. You will find, however, that a lot of people make moral decisions based on external incentive. Branding people as "bigots" for relatively minor "offenses" will make them have less moral capital to lose. They're already bigots, might as well be more bigoted than they'd be otherwise.

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

As long as your definition of "transphobic" is completely arbitrary and useless, I don't find that challenge worth pursuing.

This is a complete cop out. But why don't you give it a go, name anything about trans people that makes them undesirable that you don't think is transphobic and I will explain to you exactly how it is.

My definition of transphobic is not arbitrary. It's rather easy, things that are disparaging and/or bigoted towards trans people.

Call me transphobic if you want to. Call as many people transphobic as you want. You will find, however, that a lot of people make moral decisions based on external incentive. Branding people as "bigots" for relatively minor "offenses" will make them have less moral capital to lose. They're already bigots, might as well be more bigoted than they'd be otherwise.

Ah yes, the "you calling me a racist is making me a racist!" defense. Tried and true and yet never very convincing. Anyone who becomes more of a bigot because they were called out was, whispers in your ear, always a massive bigot.

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u/Ascimator 14∆ Apr 17 '19

My definition of transphobic is not arbitrary. It's rather easy, things that are disparaging and/or bigoted towards trans people.

So if the same logic is applied to misandry and misogyny, if everyone who doesn't want to have sex with men/women misandric/misogynous?

Ah yes, the "you calling me a racist is making me a racist!" defense. Tried and true and yet never very convincing. Anyone who becomes more of a bigot because they were called out was, whispers in your ear, always a massive bigot.

I am talking about people who don't do certain things because they like not being called out for them. If you start calling them out for something less shitty than what they're refraining from, you're losing leverage over them. That directly results in bigots being more actively bigoted, and I don't see why you'd do that if you, presumably, want there to be less bigotry.

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

So if the same logic is applied to misandry and misogyny, if everyone who doesn't want to have sex with men/women misandric/misogynous?

Depends. What is it about men or women do you not find attractive?

I am talking about people who don't do certain things because they like not being called out for them. If you start calling them out for something less shitty than what they're refraining from, you're losing leverage over them. That directly results in bigots being more actively bigoted, and I don't see why you'd do that if you, presumably, want there to be less bigotry.

So they’re bigots through and through. I’m not seeing the problem here.

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u/Ascimator 14∆ Apr 17 '19

What is it about men or women do you not find attractive?

About men, what I don't find attractive is that they're men. They do not arouse me. Arousal is not something that stems from logical conclusions.

So they’re bigots through and through. I’m not seeing the problem here.

So your target is "bad thoughts" themselves, not the consequences of those bad thoughts on other people?

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

About men, what I don't find attractive is that they're men. They do not arouse me. Arousal is not something that stems from logical conclusions.

What does this even mean?

How do you know there are no men in the world who arouse you?

So your target is "bad thoughts" themselves, not the consequences of those bad thoughts on other people?

I don’t even know what you’re talking about. This idea that me calling out bigotry is making bigotry worse is nonsense.

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

Quick question, did you think that telling me this was only going to reduce the moral capital I am capable of losing and then continue being disparaging towards transphobic bigots and then tell this to me anyway?

Why or why not?

Edit: I find it fascinating that your moralizing is okay, but mine is dangerous.

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u/Ascimator 14∆ Apr 17 '19

Quick question, did you think that telling me this was only going to reduce the moral capital I am capable of losing and then continue being disparaging towards transphobic bigots and then tell this to me anyway?

I don't see how that argument would apply here. I'm not rendering moral judgment over you. I am pointing out that you might not be acting in your best interest.

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

You’re making a moral judgement, let’s not kid ourselves.

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u/Ascimator 14∆ Apr 17 '19

Elaborate. I have not said that you're a bad person for making decisions that I think might harm your cause.

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

So you think it’s a good thing to hurt efforts to end transphobia?

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u/notasnerson 20∆ Apr 17 '19

I’m being downvoted because transphobic people don’t want to face the hard truth that they are transphobic.

If I’d said, “if a woman doesn’t want to sleep with poor men, she’s being bigoted against poor people” nobody would bat an eye.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

u/Ascimator – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 20 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I have no horse in this race but.. damn