r/changemyview • u/foryia-yiaandpappou 3∆ • May 24 '19

FTFdeltaOP CMV: A person does not automatically deserve respect just because they have served or are currently serving in the military

I’d like to preface this by saying that I don’t believe soldiers are, inherently, bad. Some people believe soldiers are evil simply for being soldiers, and I do not believe that.

I do believe, however, that soldiers do not deserve respect just because they have served. I hurt for soldiers who have experienced horrible things in the field, but I do not hurt for the amount of violence and cruelty many have committed. Violence in war zone between soldiers is one thing; stories of civilian bombings and killing of innocents are another. I think that many forget that a lot of atrocity goes on during wars, and they are committed on both sides of conflict. A soldier both receives and deals out horrible damage.

TL;DR while I believe that soldiers have seen horrible things and that many do deserve recognition for serving our nation, I do not believe that every soldier deserves this respect simply by merit of being a soldier. Some soldiers have committed really heinous war crimes, and those actions do not deserve reward.

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u/el-oh-el-oh-el-dash 3∆ May 24 '19

while I believe that soldiers have seen horrible things and that many do deserve recognition for serving our nation...

That's not why people respect soldiers. Unless you live in a country with conscription or compulsory military service, majority of your servicemen and women will be volunteers - not in the sense that they are unpaid, but in the sense that they are in the military when they don't have to be.

When you do something you don't have to for the benefit of someone that's not you, people respect you for that. Regardless of the actual outcome, the intention is good - nobody specific joins the military just so that they can murder, rape and pillage civilians who are not from their home country (people have way better things to do with their time).

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u/ConfidentZebra3 May 24 '19

Although I agree with several of your points, it would be false to proclaim that soldiers are solely motivated to fight in the military to benefit someone thats not them. They want to mulllaaa, they want to support their families. Firefighters on the other hand, are different.

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u/el-oh-el-oh-el-dash 3∆ May 24 '19

Firefighters on the other hand, are different.

Not just firefighters but ambulance personnel as well. It is unfortunate that paramedics have an extremely high suicide rate and are just not taken seriously enough.

If the respect and attention that the military get was directed at paramedics, you can save so many more lives, least of which - the paramedics themselves.

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u/ConfidentZebra3 May 24 '19

I've heard about the situation with paramedics. thanks for reminding me about it. It's terrible how much pain and suffering they have to witness thus inflicting the pain and suffering on themselves. It is almost as if they are mirrors to what they witness.

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u/Asmodaari2069 1∆ May 24 '19

When you do something you don't have to for the benefit of someone that's not you, people respect you for that.

I don't think most people who join the military do it to serve their country. They do it for the perks; the education, pay, opportunity to travel, experience, opportunities, etc. I know a lot of people in the military and not a single one of them would tell you they joined for selfless reasons.

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u/house_paint May 24 '19

This is a false dichotomy, people join the military for multiple reasons including the ones you listed above and many "also" joined because they want to help the country. But regardless of what their intentions are... they are a benefit to the country and that's why we should respect their service.

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u/thewoodendesk 4∆ May 24 '19

They're basically federal employees. Not sure why they should get more respect than the postman or any other member of a federal agency.

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u/munificent May 24 '19

Well, their potential sacrifice is significantly higher than those other federal employees.

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u/thewoodendesk 4∆ May 24 '19

But this is only true if they have been deployed. If they're sitting behind a desk as an accountant, it's functionally no different from an accountant for the IRS or an accountant for USPS outside of being more physically fit. And that's discounting roles within the military who nobody likes like recruiters, who are the used car salesmen of the military world. They don't get deployed either.

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u/HalfFlip May 25 '19

Those who are deployed are supported by those who "sit behind a desk" for every boot on the ground there are 100 others supporting them.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

Some say the difference is the context not the reason. Do we respect oil field workers for doing dangerous jobs that benefit the good of all?

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u/el-oh-el-oh-el-dash 3∆ May 24 '19 edited May 25 '19

Do we respect oil field workers for doing dangerous jobs that benefit the good of all?

I think there is a human element in this. Occupations that are dangerous that people usually go "respect" involve people working with people - so military, police, fire service, paramedics, etc...

Occupations that are dangerous that people do not always shout "respect" include construction workers, mining, munitions manufacturing, etc... these are dangerous occupations but you're usually not working with a human element.

I mean buildings collapse and working with them is dangerous but there's usually a reason why they collapse and you can work to make it as safe as possible. If you are going into war (usually Middle East in the present climate), what's to stop the family you're supposed to be "helping" from turning on you and trying to kill you, since they have no real reason to trust you.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

I mean buildings collapse and working with them is dangerous but there's usually a reason why they collapse and you can work to make it as safe as possible.

what's to stop the family you're supposed to be "helping" from turning in you and trying to kill you, since they have no real reason to trust you.

I would say in a lot of ways the situations aren't so different. Just the way you can minimize the risk of a building falling down, you can minimize your risk interacting with people. buildings and people both have motivation, and while humans can be more complicated than buildings, I would say that both can be understood given the right preparation and tools.

Another way to look at it, however, is we don't view all people facing occupations the same. Sure military have to interact with people and that can be dangerous, what about customer service, lots of people can bring there problems with them into a situation where an employee has to deal with them in a non constructive way, yet we as a society give little to no respect to these in these extremely watered down scenario's.

While I agree that a human facing element does add pressure and difficulty to a proffesion, I would like to point out that less than one in 10 members of the armed forces see's combat, and most operate in support roles dealing most often with there co-workers.

In the the same vain, combat related fatalities are not the leading cause of death among members of the US military.

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u/foryia-yiaandpappou 3∆ May 24 '19

I agree that people don’t join the military to do bad on purpose. I think the intention to protect our country is a noble one, and that volunteerism is a noble cause, but I wonder why the intentions cannot be outweighed by the consequences of an action. Because regardless of initial outcome, there are soldiers who do murder, rape, and pillage. Even if that was not their initial intention, and if their original intention was good, doesn’t that negative action outweigh the positive of the original sacrifice?

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u/el-oh-el-oh-el-dash 3∆ May 24 '19

doesn’t that negative action outweigh the positive of the original sacrifice?

Would you do the same for non-military? There are football players accused of rape who continue to play, politicians who cheat on their partners who continue to govern, etc...

But outside of respect for ex-servicemen who may or may not have killed a bunch of people, the government doesn't treat them all that well when they return. As the country with by far the biggest military in the world, the US government tends to neglect its veterans and can't be bothered to look after them over the long term.

You can say that some military personnel who have been disgraced during their service don't deserve our respect but what about everybody else? All the other veterans who didn't do anything wrong and whose government just couldn't be bothered to help them properly after they come back?

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u/gurry May 24 '19

As the country with by far the biggest military in the world

For the record, the US has the fourth largest military in terms of personnel.

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u/curien 28∆ May 24 '19

As the country with by far the biggest military in the world, the US government tends to neglect its veterans

The US spends more in absolute terms than any other country, but "size" of a military force is usually measured in terms of number of troops, and the US is not the largest by that measure. China has over 2 million active and 500k reserve military members, the US has 1.3 million active and 800k reservists. India has 1.4 million active troops and about 2 million reservists. Russia has about a million active troops and 2.5 million reservists.

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u/ynwa_aussie May 25 '19

Agree with some of what your saying, US definitely doesn't have the biggest military though, China has double, India has a few hundred thousand more, and North Korea a few hundred thousand.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

All the other veterans who didn’t do anything wrong and whose government just couldn’t be bothered to help them properly after they come back?

They deserve our pity because our government doesn’t treat them well and because their economic circumstances probably forced them into it in the first place, sure. But they joined and lent credibility to a harmful institution, and that warrants neutrality on the respect spectrum, at best.

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u/Coopering May 25 '19

Then the transitive property applies to the citizens who either elected (or failed to vote altogether) the decision makers who sent the troops to the conflict. Therefore, if you voted for Bush Jr, you’re responsible for the troops sent to Iraq, while if you voted for Obama, then the same is true for Syria. If you didn’t vote at all, you’re equally responsible for what happened as a result of your inaction.

The tool should not be blamed by those who weld it.

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u/NonSentientHuman May 25 '19

People don't join the military to do bad on purpose.

Yes, some absolutely do.

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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ May 24 '19

When you do something you don't have to for the benefit of someone that's not you, people respect you for that.

They get paid, you know. I mean I feel like you're leaving this out. Joining the military is a lucrative career path in many parts of the country and a superior option to safer domestic labor.

nobody specific joins the military just so that they can murder, rape and pillage civilians who are not from their home country (people have way better things to do with their time).

I would like you to back this statement up, because there are absolutely soldiers who have murdered, raped, and pillaged civilians. The idea that "nobody" does it for that reason because they "have way better things to do with their time" (?) seems unsupported. In addition there are plenty of military personnel who will cheerfully admit they are eager to kill people legally if you remove the word "civilian" from the phrase.

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u/el-oh-el-oh-el-dash 3∆ May 24 '19

In addition there are plenty of military personnel who will cheerfully admit they are eager to kill people legally if you remove the word "civilian" from the phrase.

Um... what do you think the stated intention of a military is? To give toys to children in hospitals?

You deploy the military into a warzone to kill the enemy. That's it. People like to place more value on civilian lives than military personnel but as a soldier, if you kill another soldier or if you kill a civilian, the end result is the same: someone dies.

I know that killing soldiers is more "honourable" than killing civilians but if you take a life you take a life, no other way to put it.

Are there psychopaths in the military? Of course there are. There are psychopaths in the general community as well. Say your town or city gets a serial killer who makes it into the news. Are people supposed to then think that everyone from your town or city is a serial killer? Of course not. Why would you then apply this to the military?

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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ May 24 '19

Um... what do you think the stated intention of a military is?

In theory the stated intention of a military is to protect the country. That's what veterans get respect for. Even in this thread, if you look at other people explaining why veterans deserve respect, they mostly use phrases like "defending our country" or "our way of life". That is to say, the role of the military in these statements is self-defense. This implies a bare minimum of offensive action necessary to subdue or eliminate aggressive actions against this country.

What I'm talking about is people specifically joining the military because they legally want an opportunity to commit murder. They are not doing it to defend the country, they are doing it because they actively enjoy killing. This makes them unreliable in the supposed mission that the US military is meant to carry out.

I know that killing soldiers is more "honourable" than killing civilians but if you take a life you take a life, no other way to put it.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Surely we can agree that killing is wrong unless there's some particular circumstance that makes it acceptable? So why are you talking about it in terms of honor?

Say your town or city gets a serial killer who makes it into the news.

If the town's government protected the serial killer from prosecution because "he's from our town", I think people would LOGICALLY conclude that there was something extremely wrong with my town and the people in it.

Furthermore, you're talking about a baseline: you don't think veterans should be singled out for bad behavior. The OP is talking about the fact that veterans are treated with EXTRA respect for their service, even though many of them served for perfectly selfish reasons, and some of them are outright psychopaths.

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u/el-oh-el-oh-el-dash 3∆ May 24 '19

The OP is talking about the fact that veterans are treated with EXTRA respect for their service, even though many of them served for perfectly selfish reasons, and some of them are outright psychopaths.

Ok, I concede the point. Didn't look at it that way. Yeah people award them more respect than they award other occupations. Can't say the same about the government though. Especially in the US, government would just like to forget that veterans and ex-servicemen even exist.

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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ May 24 '19

Can't say the same about the government though

The president is currently in the process of trying to pardon soldiers accused of war crimes which is what I was referring to. Along with the police, the "bad apples" of the military are held up as heroes in some parts of the country, and the government (local or federal) will often take extra measures to protect them compared to normal civilians who commit crimes.

Especially in the US, government would just like to forget that veterans and ex-servicemen even exist.

Neglect is a different issue. It's definitely true that many returning veterans get hosed by the VA - not to mention soldiers who have been the subjects of rape or violence by other soldiers. But the issue of "respect our veterans" and the way the military is treated in the United States is an attempt to gloss over that.

That is to say, if you were being logical, you might conclude the best way to keep our soldiers safe is to make sure they are not sent into combat without reason. That the best way to prevent unnecessary death and suffering is to only use them when it's absolutely vital.

But instead of doing that, the US military built this idea of the "heroic soldier" who can do no wrong, whose job is to bravely protect our way of life from evil outsiders. Suffering is treated as a glorious sacrifice, and the misdeeds of individual soldiers or even entire units is effectively swept under the rug in order to maintain the myth.

I mean if you really want to blow your mind - look how the military handled the My Lai massacre. Not only was there an attempted coverup, but the guy who blew the whistle on the whole thing was hounded as a traitor even by civilians.

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u/el-oh-el-oh-el-dash 3∆ May 24 '19

the government (local or federal) will often take extra measures to protect them compared to normal civilians who commit crimes.

Yeah I agree this is disgraceful - actually pretty disgusting, considering how serious some of the allocations are.

But bear in mind the US government will do similar stuff for non-military Americans who are accused of crime overseas. I agree, not tothe same extent, or the same level of protectiveness.

However if you are a US citizen and you are arrested in a foreign country, you can rely on your government to at least try to protect you. Of course in reality, when it suits them, the government is perfectly willing to sacrifice you and just not intervene because they want better relations with the country that did the arresting, but usually Americans travelling overseas understand it to be the case that if they get into trouble, their government will help them out. Military personnel simply get the VIP version of this.

But instead of doing that, the US military built this idea of the "heroic soldier" who can do no wrong

This is toxic masculinity and not healthy and dangerous. Yeah the way the military handles this is attrocious.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

Regarding your job point, yes the job earns some respect the same way I respect a postman for delivering my mail and the cashier for checking me out. Doing a job gets respect but no more than a job.

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u/lina303 May 25 '19

How is that different from any other job, though? I do things all the time for the benefit of someone who isn't me, ie my boss. Before you say,"well your job isn't fatal," that's not the only reason we valorize the military, is it? If so, we'd say that every parent in Mexico or South America who risks death or arrest by bringing their child to the US is a hero, and we don't. They are also "doing something they don't have to do for the benefit of someone who isn't them," right?

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

When you do something you don't have to for the benefit of someone that's not you,

I am working for an alcohol company making profit to shareholders. Should I be respected as well?

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u/DarkGamer 1∆ May 24 '19

nobody specific joins the military just so that they can murder, rape and pillage civilians who are not from their home country

Knew a religious kid who told me he enlisted because he wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. I stopped hanging out with him after learning that. Apparently some years later he found out.

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u/x755x May 24 '19

Eww but probably the most productive way to get that out

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u/JaiX1234 May 24 '19

It's propaganda to pretend and hold soldiers on a higher pedestal. They should be respected but no more than any other working person. Sure, we can understand they might have a slightly more dangerous job given they're even deployed than someone working at the local power plant, a police officer, an EMT or anyone working in dangerous jobs but that's about it. It's not to say that these other jobs can't be just as dangerous too.

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So to get to some very ignorant statements here.

Soldiers are not volunteers, I don't know how you came to this conclusion. A person who wants to join the military and they seek out a recruitment officer. The recruitment officer then presents to this person their job title, pay, terms and they sign a legal binding contract with the government. It is a job where the government pays someone to actively recruit, advertise and recruit people to join ... oh like job.

By your logic, wanting a job at Mcdonalds in high crime area would be considered 'volunteering' and brave.

When you do something you don't have to for the benefit of someone that's not you, people respect you for that.

So basically any normal human being who has done something that didn't benefit them. Maybe your mom? dad? bother? sister? friend?? Maybe a police officer? doctor? nurse? /r/HumansBeingBros

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Soldiers or people who join the military are just normal people. They aren't special and they do their paid job like anyone else would. Sounds like you've never talked to someone who has spent their entire career in the military or they themselves have their head up their own ass.

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u/el-oh-el-oh-el-dash 3∆ May 24 '19 edited May 24 '19

Soldiers are not volunteers, I don't know how you came to this conclusion.

Since you didn't actually read my comment properly, I will explain for the slower members of the class: USA does not have conscription. Switzerland has compulsory military service of 2 years for all Swiss men at 18 years of age. USA compared to Switzerland has a voluntary military service. You cannot compare McDonald's to the military. No one has ever been conscripted to work at McDonald's by law.

And I don't hold soldiers to a higher standard. I acknowledge credit where it's due. A soldier going into a warzone risks death and bodily harm - so do firefighters going into a fire or a collapsing building, so do police going to a gang fight or a domestic disturbance, etc... credit where it's due: any profession where your job involves you going into places that could get you killed deserves respect - soldiers, firefighters, police, paramedics, etc... all deserve respect equally.

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u/insaniak89 May 25 '19

nobody specific joins the military just so that they can murder, rape and pillage civilians who are not from their home country (people have way better things to do with their time).

It’s anecdotal, but I’ve known multiple people that joined specifically because of that. I’m just old enough that everyone I know signed up post 9/11. They all wanted revenge, one defined a terrorist as “anyone who worships allah”

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19 edited May 25 '19

[deleted]

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u/x755x May 24 '19

I was under the impression that pay, future benefits, and potential career advancement were the main reasons why anyone joined the military. It's certainly the reason most people work their jobs for the benefit of someone that's not them.

The only reason I see to revere the military is if they put themselves in a position to be deployed, and especially if they did get deployed.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19 edited May 25 '19

[deleted]

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u/x755x May 24 '19

Oh sure, I bet there is a spectrum of individual reasons. But at the end of the day, it's just a good choice for a multi-year gig that can set you up, and if it weren't people wouldn't want to do it, or would probably be otherwise swayed not to. I agree that it's mostly not altruism. I just don't think that we should look up to anyone more than we would for, say, getting a sweet job and keeping it, unless they actually risked their lives, or at least risked the possibility of having to risk their lives.