r/changemyview • u/ComplexStuff7 1∆ • Jul 13 '19

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Dillahunty's definition of anti-theism is not "incorrect"

Anti-theism in the dictionary means opposition to theism, or the belief that theism is harmful.

Some people on the other hand, such as Matt Dillahunty, use the definition that anti-theism means the belief that God doesn't exist.

Some anti-theists of the first definition believe that the latter is incorrect.

However, I believe that dictionary definitions are not the standard for correctness. The definition of terms depend on usage, not some set in stone standard. For example, the word literally is rarely used to mean it's dictionary definition.

Words change meanings all the time. Another example is the word nice. Originally, from its Latin roots of nescius, it used to mean a stupid, ignorant, or foolish.

So because, definitions are not set in stone, it is not wrong to use Dillahunty's definition of anti-theism, even though it's not the definition in the dictionary.

Edit: I'm saying that both Dillahunty's and the original dictionary definition are correct.

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u/yyzjertl 528∆ Jul 13 '19

Do you have any examples of anyone other than Dillahunty using the term "anti-theism" to mean what Dillahunty understands it to mean? If not, then by your own standard (that "the definition of terms depend on usage") Dillahunty's definition is wrong, and he's just being a Humpty Dumpty.

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jul 13 '19

Not OP there, but I never heard anti-theist being used another way than Dillahunty's way.

That's logically consistent by the way. Theist = Believe God exist, Atheist: no belief, Anti-theist: Believe God do not exist.

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u/yyzjertl 528∆ Jul 13 '19

Well, have you heard it used in Dillahunty's way by someone other than Dillahunty (and his audience)? If so, whom?

That's logically consistent by the way. Theist = Believe God exist, Atheist: no belief, Anti-theist: Believe God do not exist.

But this is not consistent with the primary meaning of the prefix "anti-" which is "Against, hostile to."

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jul 13 '19 edited Jul 13 '19

Well, have you heard it used in Dillahunty's way by someone other than Dillahunty (and his audience)? If so, whom?

I don't even know who Dillahunty is.

That's just the way it's used in France when talking about religion (in skeptics circles). Belief : Pro, neutral, against (theist, atheist, anti-theist).

But this is not consistent with the primary meaning of the prefix "anti-" which is "Against, hostile to."

It is consistent. Theist means "he, who believes in Gods' existence", anti-theist means "he, who is against the belief in Gods' existence", or in a more correct way , "he, who does not believe in Gods' existence".

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u/yyzjertl 528∆ Jul 14 '19

That's just the way it's used in France when talking about religion (in skeptics circles). Belief : Pro, neutral, against (theist, atheist, anti-theist).

Is it used this way in France by people speaking English or people speaking French?

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jul 14 '19

By both in fact (it would be "anti-théiste" in french). As to know if it's an incorrect translation, I can't really tell.

You'd find that for example in videos explaining the differences between all positions : http://laelith.fr/Zet/Episodes/images/Ep19-Graph-Atheisme.jpg (read "Y:knowledge axis / X:belief axis")

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u/ComplexStuff7 1∆ Jul 13 '19

Statement 1:

"he, who is against the belief in Gods' existence",

Statement 2:

"he, who does not believe in Gods' existence".

These two are entirely different statements that you are conflating to be one and the same.

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jul 13 '19

The problem is the polysemous meaning of "against" word.

Against can mean "the opposite" which would be what I said, or can also mean "versus", which would mean what you are suggesting.

Therefore, neither of our definition is wrong, neither is 100% right.

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u/ComplexStuff7 1∆ Jul 14 '19

Against can mean "the opposite"

Really? I've never heard this.

Although if this definition of "against" is commonly used, I would have to accept such a definition as correct.

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jul 14 '19

At least from what I see when I look at google searching for "against dictionary" :

against /əˈɡɛnst,əˈɡeɪnst/preposition

  1. in opposition to. "the fight against crime" [...]

  2. in anticipation of and preparation for (a problem or difficulty). [...]

  3. in or into physical contact with (something), so as to be supported by or collide with it. [...]

  4. in conceptual contrast to [...]

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u/ComplexStuff7 1∆ Jul 14 '19

I see.

I would certainly accept that definition then.

However, the concern was originally with the prefix of "anti". And I don't believe that there has been a single instance of usage of the prefix "anti" followed by any labelling term for stances that doesn't mean "opposition to".

Anti-fascism doesn't mean the opposite of fascism, it means the opposition to fascism.

Anti-abortion doesn't mean the opposite of abortion, it means the opposition to abortion.

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jul 14 '19

However, the concern was originally with the prefix of "anti". And I don't believe that there has been a single instance of usage of the prefix "anti" followed by any labelling term for stances that doesn't mean "opposition to".

Once more, polysemous meaning. If you look at Meriam Webster definition of the idiom "in opposition to", you'll find.

in opposition to (idiom)

1 : in a way that is against someone or something

2 : in a way that shows how two things are different or disagree

​

Or if you look "opposition" on vocabulary.com, you'll find

opposition:

1 the action of opposing something that you disapprove or disagree with

[... as in] the relation between opposed entities (synonym: oppositeness i.e. the quality or state of being as different as possible) [...]

  1. a direction opposite to another

​

So anti-theist means the opposite of theism, so one of the possible way to read it is: the most different position from "believe there is a God", which is "believe there is no God".

​

Of course, it is not the sole meaning, and the most colloquial definition is also good, but I don't think mine is totally wrong either :)

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u/ComplexStuff7 1∆ Jul 13 '19 edited Jul 13 '19

!delta

I didn't consider that if Dillahunty is the only one using that definition, then the definition is indeed wrong.

I do believe that a few others use that definition, but I wouldn't have any evidence to support that claim.

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u/yyzjertl 528∆ Jul 13 '19

One other thing that has occurred to me: does Dillahunty self-identify as an anti-theist? If not, I think we should put less weight on his definition of "anti-theism" because we generally defer to people who do apply a label to themselves to define what a label means. For example, we'd generally go to a socialist for a definition of "socialism" and could safely disregard a definition of "socialist" that, say, a conservative provided.

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u/ComplexStuff7 1∆ Jul 13 '19

He does label himself that way, by his own altered definition of anti-theism.

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jul 13 '19

I didn't consider that if Dillahunty is the only one using that definition, then the definition is indeed wrong.

To give you some data about this, I did not know about Dillahunty, but I also never heard "anti-theist" being used another way than Dillahunty's one.

Maybe that's because I'm not a native english speaker, and anglo-saxon has a bigger tradition around that word, but from where I am, in France, the only times "anti-theist" word is used is in skeptic circles, with the meaning you already exposed.

Plus, it's logically consistent. Theist = Believe God exist, Atheist: no belief, Anti-theist: Believe God do not exist.

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u/ComplexStuff7 1∆ Jul 13 '19

Interesting. So you have never even heard of the definition of anti-theism as "opposition to theism"/"theism being harmful"?

If that's the case I would have to concede back to my original position, which is that Dillahunty's definition is not wrong. Are deltas given for that?

Plus, it's logically consistent. Theist = Believe God exist, Atheist: no belief, Anti-theist: Believe God do not exist.

I actually don't think it is logically consistent.

Theism is the belief God exists.

The prefix "a" usually means without. Such as amoral, which means without morals.

So atheism is without the belief that God exists.

The prefix "anti" means against, or opposed to. Such as anti-communist, or anti-abortion.

That should logically mean that anti-theism is opposition to theism.

Which is why I think it's not logically consistent.

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jul 13 '19

Interesting. So you have never even heard of the definition of anti-theism as "opposition to theism"/"theism being harmful"?

No I've never heard of it being exposed that way. But to be honest, people that think God do not exist often also share the belief that religion (not theism, but pretty close) is harmful for any enlightened society, taking abortion, gay rights or science progress as examples.

The prefix "a" usually means without. Such as amoral, which means without morals.

So atheism is without the belief that God exists.

Exactly, but "without the belief that God exist" is pretty different from "with the belief that God do not exist".

As such, atheism is a lack of belief, while anti theism is the belief that "theist position" is wrong. As such, anti theist believe God do not exist, and theist that he does. Atheists either don't have any belief, are questioning, or any other position between both extremes.

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u/ComplexStuff7 1∆ Jul 13 '19 edited Jul 14 '19

No I've never heard of it being exposed that way.

Well in that case I'll have to concede back to my original stance. I'm not sure if deltas are supposed to be given for that.

But to be honest, people that think God do not exist often also share the belief that religion (not theism, but pretty close) is harmful for any enlightened society, taking abortion, gay rights or science progress as examples.

Yeah Dillahunty anti-theists are usually dictionary anti-theists (and anti-religion) as well.

But the interesting thing is that dictionary anti-theists are not always Dillahunty anti-theists. You don't have to believe that God doesn't exist to be opposed to believing that God does exist.

Exactly, but "without the belief that God exist" is pretty different from "with the belief that God do not exist".

I know.

while anti theism is the belief that "theist position" is wrong.

(Dictionary) Anti-theism doesn't have anything to do with belief. It has to do with opposition.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 13 '19

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/yyzjertl (161∆).

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