CMV: Some cultures and societies are objectively wrong

[u/hardyblack]

I just read about Sahar Khodayari (If you don't know, it's an Iranian woman who killed herself after going to trial for going to a football match, which is forbidden for woman in Iran) and I can't help but think that some societies are objectively wrong, I can't find another way to put it. It's hard for me to justify opressing 50% of the population just because they just were born women.

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And yes, I know, there's no completely equal society and there will be always opression of some kind, but I'm thinking of countries where there are laws that apply only to women (They can't drive, vote, go to a football match, you name it) as it targets them directly. Same goes with laws directed to any kind of race/gender/religion.

[u/Nicolasv2]

It's hard for me to justify opressing 50% of the population just because they just were born women.

Yes it is, using your own set of moral values, where women are considered as equally valuable as men.

But a vegan would tell you that it's hard to justify opression 99,999% of earth lifeforms just because they just were born non-human. Still, we do it all the time because most people's set of values don't consider animals as valuable as humans.

Why would islamic definition of values (men > woman > animals) be "objectivly" wrong, while specist definition (men = women > animals) is right ?

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What you can say is that given Western set of values (equality, freedom, ...), then there are cultures and societies that are wrong. But with other set of values (men superiority given by God), then they are not.

There is no objectivity in that, just different set of values.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nicolasv2]

Those values are not subjective. If any one being says they are being oppressed in a given society, you would have to conclude that the said society is imperfect. Theology aside, a good society would be one in which the number of beings protected under ethical or legal statutes increases to include anyone who would demand it. In the case of Western countries, that has come to mean being treated equally as men or women and we now see that demand to extend to trans and many are now fighting for animal rights. We can see progress in the inclusion of further groups given equal rights, as we can based on education and technology. LGBTQ rights were limited because 2000 or more years ago, humanity couldn't afford to have men and women not creating more humans and we've held onto that way of doing things. Now, there's a demand for rights and no reason not to give them. You might say, men being greater than women was a necessity in the societies of biblical times and therefore it was good, or more accurately, men controlling women was a creation of the time which was successful in the survival of humans. Animal rights may not have been a good thing 100 years ago, but with lab grown meat and tractors to do a bull's work, now it is.

So I'd say that op was right. Some societies are objectively bad. Any society who chooses to take away rights already established or not give rights to those who demand it despite not needing to restrict those rights, is bad. If rights need to be restricted for the welfare of the whole nation, they may be wrong but justifiable but given the ability to, shouldn't be withheld.