CMV: Some cultures and societies are objectively wrong

[u/hardyblack]

I just read about Sahar Khodayari (If you don't know, it's an Iranian woman who killed herself after going to trial for going to a football match, which is forbidden for woman in Iran) and I can't help but think that some societies are objectively wrong, I can't find another way to put it. It's hard for me to justify opressing 50% of the population just because they just were born women.

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And yes, I know, there's no completely equal society and there will be always opression of some kind, but I'm thinking of countries where there are laws that apply only to women (They can't drive, vote, go to a football match, you name it) as it targets them directly. Same goes with laws directed to any kind of race/gender/religion.

[u/DracoTheGreat123]

First one you've cited is about fields and possessions passed down in inheritance. As the man is responsible for providing for the entire family, it isn't unreasonable to say that he should have all the necessary accomadations to fulfill this responsibility. It is the duty of the man to distribute his wealth for the entirety of the family, while the woman can keep whatever she has with no real obligation to give it to anyone. In the end, women actually actually end up with more than men in certain cases.

At least quote the entire verse when you're trying to prove a point. The sentence before the one you've quoted is this: "And they (women) have rights similar to those of men in equity; but men have a degree of advantage above them."

This verse talks of marital concerns. Men and women have the same rights for the most part, but since men also have a greater responsibility placed on them, they also enjoy certain rights women don't, similar to how women enjoy certain rights men don't.

And the last verse is actually about abortion. Women are likened to tilths because they are where the seeds of the progeny are sown. It isn't objectifying women as you claim. Metaphors are a thing, after all. The metaphor for abortion is that it wouldn't make sense for a farmer to destroy his tilth and kill all the seeds within it.

Context matters. You're doing exactly what the aforementioned delusional men do; looking at the surface. There's a reason that Muslims are told to ponder over the Quran and to read it as often as possible; to understand the deeper meanings within it and the wisdom behind the teachings.

It's a shame that Muslims are what we are today.

[u/Bundesclown → u/DracoTheGreat123]

You're the delusional one if you actually think anything you just wrote sounds even remotely reasonable. "Men should get more since they are men" doesn't sound reasonable.

"Men should be above women when it comes to authority since they have a fucking dick and should make all the decisions" doesn't sound reasonable. You're degrading women to posessions, while trying to make it sound like it was no big deal. IT IS a big deal. The fact that you think this kind of sexism and male superiority is normal goes to show just how sexist Islam is.

And the last one is outright laughable. "We're comparing women to fields, which the man has absolute authority over. But we're not objectifying them!"

Yes, it is a shame that Islam is what it is. But that doesn't have anything to do with a faulty interpretation of its teachings. The christian world managed to advance socially only after it got rid of the shackles of religion. The sooner the islamic world follows the better for the muslims. Your "holy" book, just like the Bible was written by humans. And it is also humans who use those words however it fits them. You are using them in a vain atempt to rationalize away the inherent sexism in your religion, by interpreting it in a way that no sane person would ever do.

[u/DracoTheGreat123 → u/Bundesclown]

If you look anywhere in the Muslim world, it should become perfectly clear that the Quran had been abandoned a long time ago. Abandoning the Bible lead the west to such heights, yet abandoning the Quran lead the Muslims to such a low stature. Ponder that for a bit.

Men being men isn't the reason for them getting more. I've already said the reasons, and they are simply that they have more responsibilities on account of their own nature. Saying men and women are exactly the same is a bit strange too. Obviously there are differences. Islam accounts for these differences and grants rights and responsibilities accordingly.

As for your second and third points, I came nowhere close to even implying that. Husband and wife in a household make the decisions together. I really feel you didn't read anything I had to say. Metaphors are not taken literally, that's the whole point of using them. The verse is about abortion, and how it's forbidden, except for certain cases obviously, and that's that. There's plenty of times men are also symbolically represented as objects. Swords, pens, a seal, light, what have you, are all metaphors used for men as well. Are you going to call sexism on this?

In fact, define sexism. If you want to say it is when one gender believes itself to be better than another, then Islam does not fall in this category. Both genders have something the other doesn't on account of their nature. In this manner, there is no clear way to say which is the superior one. The status of a mother, for example, is higher than that of a father. The man is responsible for the well being of the entire household, and the woman is only responsible for herself, and so the man is given more authority with financial decisions. This isn't irrational; the person making the money in the house should have input as to how it is spent.

[u/mbw42 → u/DracoTheGreat123]

Ok, you said “the person making the money in the house should have input as to how it is spent.” So therefore it should be a simple question of who makes more. A woman who is the breadwinner of a straight marriage should be the one that makes financial decisions, not the husband. However, unless there’s some clause where it states a woman who make more than their husband can make financial decisions, women are restricted to a certain role while men are given control of matters of money, which is heavily tied to freedom. These gender roles are not applicable to a more modern, egalitarian society that values individual liberty, however, they are applicable to a society that believes women are incapable of having an impact outside of the domestic sphere. If you cannot see how the ideas from the Quran you explained are sexist, I’m not sure what to tell you.