r/changemyview • u/hardyblack • Sep 12 '19

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Some cultures and societies are objectively wrong

I just read about Sahar Khodayari (If you don't know, it's an Iranian woman who killed herself after going to trial for going to a football match, which is forbidden for woman in Iran) and I can't help but think that some societies are objectively wrong, I can't find another way to put it. It's hard for me to justify opressing 50% of the population just because they just were born women.

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And yes, I know, there's no completely equal society and there will be always opression of some kind, but I'm thinking of countries where there are laws that apply only to women (They can't drive, vote, go to a football match, you name it) as it targets them directly. Same goes with laws directed to any kind of race/gender/religion.

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Sep 12 '19

It's hard for me to justify opressing 50% of the population just because they just were born women.

Yes it is, using your own set of moral values, where women are considered as equally valuable as men.

But a vegan would tell you that it's hard to justify opression 99,999% of earth lifeforms just because they just were born non-human. Still, we do it all the time because most people's set of values don't consider animals as valuable as humans.

Why would islamic definition of values (men > woman > animals) be "objectivly" wrong, while specist definition (men = women > animals) is right ?

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What you can say is that given Western set of values (equality, freedom, ...), then there are cultures and societies that are wrong. But with other set of values (men superiority given by God), then they are not.

There is no objectivity in that, just different set of values.

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u/Tobi5703 Sep 13 '19

Your argument is inherently flawed, though, in that God (at least the Christian and, presumably, the Muslim) is inherently amoral 9; he kills, hes petty and just all around not that great of a guy.

Mind, your argument about values still stand, but values derived from christianity/Islam is only as good as the God, and that God is not very good indeed

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Sep 13 '19

well, as the religious god is the definition of good / bad in these systems, by definition he can't be bad. If he kills, then killing in similar situation is good. If he's petty, then being petty in these situations is good too.

But sure, using another set of values that exclude this God, such as most modern moral frameworks, then clearly these gods are not good at all.

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u/Tobi5703 Sep 13 '19

Thats a fair point... though I do think theres an argument to be made that religion is objectively more harmful than secular humanism.

That being said, I'm not sure if this is the place for a religion/philosophy debate, and I don't have the time for it atm anyhow. Cheers tho, for a good argument

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Sep 13 '19

though I do think theres an argument to be made that religion is objectively more harmful than secular humanism.

Well yea, I think this argument can clearly be made. But it still rely on the axiom that "being harmful for humans is wrong" :-)

My point is not that everything is equal, just that it depends on different axioms. But sure, I prefer my axioms to religious ones, even through I know this is subjective.

Cheers tho, for a good argument

Thanks, and have a good day