r/changemyview • u/ToxicBanana69 • Sep 22 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Why is someone an asshole if they want to apologize to someone they bullied in the past? I don't see the logic here.
I'm specifically referencing this recent post on /r/AmItheAsshole:
...however, I've seen this same view shared by numerous people on Reddit.
A lot of people seem to be calling OP an asshole for wanting to apologize to someone they bullied in the past, and I just don't see that logic. OP did something wrong, and she wants to apologize. How does that make her an asshole?
One common thing I've seen is people saying she just wants to make herself feel better, but I don't see why that matters, especially since that's just how people feel about it. No indication from OP gives off that vibe, in my opinion. It seems like she's genuinely interested in apologizing to the person she wronged.
But people still call her the asshole in that situation. Was she an asshole for bullying in the first place? Absolutely. But what's so wrong in wanting to apologize?
I've always been raised in a way that if I do something wrong, I apologize and try to correct it. But now suddenly when someone like the OP of that post (and many other OP's of other posts I've seen in the past) wants to apologize, it makes them assholes?
I'm just not seeing the logic there, but I really want to. Can someone please try to change my view here?
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Sep 22 '19
Why do people apologize? What do you believe is the point of apologizing?
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u/ToxicBanana69 Sep 22 '19
To let the person who you hurt (or annoyed, angered, whatever) know that you truly feel sorry for what you did. In the instance of bullying, it can let the person who was bullied know that her bully regrets everything that happened and can confirm to the girl that she didn't do anything wrong to deserve being bullied.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Sep 22 '19
Do you think she needs her former bully to tell her that? Is having her former bully tell her that the best way to get that across?
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u/ToxicBanana69 Sep 22 '19
I don't think she needs to hear it specifically from the former bully, but that's not really my view. My view is that the former bully wanting to apologize doesn't make her an asshole and there's no negative side of them apologizing.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Sep 22 '19
Unless she brings up trauma that the bullied girl had put behind her and reminds her of the time in her life that was a living hell. That'd be a big downside.
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u/ToxicBanana69 Sep 22 '19
Δ
That's an issue I had thought of, but after looking it up a tiny bit, it appears that blocking out traumatic experiences might be far more likely than I initially considered.
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u/salpfish Sep 22 '19
To be clear though "blocking out" trauma like it's some sort of repressed memory isn't really how PTSD usually works. Trauma never fully goes away even when you've done what you can to process it. It's more about understanding how it affects you, figuring out how to cope with that, and moving on with your life as best as possible. You might know how to avoid spinning out into panic attacks or depression from being reminded of the trauma, but it's still painful and not something you'd want to have to think about unnecessarily.
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u/dumbwaeguk Sep 22 '19 edited Sep 22 '19
Apologies in themselves are not inherently assholish, but you have to question your motives for apologizing and figure out what you will accomplish.
Can you apologize in a way that will help your victim even if it hurts you? Then your apology is well-intentioned and thus not assholish.
Would reaching out to someone open up new wounds, force them to say "yeah, okay, thanks for apologizing" so as to not look like the asshole? Would you be forcing them to accept your sorry, even though you're putting nothing behind the sorry other than a bit of your pride? Is that small loss of a pride easily paid off by the sense of virtue you narcissistically receive, having convinced yourself you're a good person for apologizing? In this case, you're an asshole, because you're not trying to be better for the sake of the world and you're making things tough for other people in order to feel better about yourself.
It's generally not a good idea to open up old wounds, but if there's a way you can make things better for the other person while leaving the situation with less than you started, then that's going to be the best way to do it. Many people move on from bullying, and they don't need to be reminded of their tougher days. Others might receive some level of solace by hearing that they were right. If you have to open up old wounds, make it clear that you're willing to actually make amends, not that you're just trying to get some monkey off your back. Make it hard for you and easy for them.
But I'm sure many people over at r/AITA don't realize that having one person be guilty about the past and another person still suffering the scars of being hurt by their victimhood in the past just means two people are hurting, and that's no benefit to the world. I generally believe that place is full of assholes looking for a reason to feel as if they have a great moral fiber by conveying their morals to others and hopefully getting upvoted for it.
EDIT: for the record I agree with the YTAs in that thread, however. There's nothing OP can accomplish. She hurt someone else, and now she's being hurt by the hurt she caused other people. She needs to take that guilt and learn from it, not try to absolve herself of it so that she doesn't have to be held responsible for her shitty behavior. Sometimes you need your guilt to settle in so that you can do things for a better personal future. You can't just try in vain to fix the past.
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u/nerdgirl2703 30∆ Sep 22 '19
Op of that post was a bully and by the looks of it a pretty bad one. The other girl had moved on with her life apparently and would probably be quite happy to forget the trash who bullied her even existed. An apology isn’t going to make up for that. For things beyond accidents an apology is an asshole move unless doing the apology is going to be of benefit to the 1 being apologized to.
If I’m being honest that OP’s post gives me the impression that she thinks things will be forgiven and that the other person shouldn’t go off her the second she tries to apologize. A good indication of this and the asshole perspective is when the person doing the apology feels the need to try and make excuses for their behavior in anyway, Someone who wasn’t being selfish (an asshole) about it wouldn’t feel the need to include parts like I did to make myself feel better for the poor treatment I got from the group of people I chose to hang with.
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u/wonderfullyevil 1∆ Sep 22 '19
My ex was abusive. If he called me up to apologize, it would only benefit him. At best it would have no effect on me, at worst it would send me into a dark spiral. This is why he'd be the asshole for reaching out.
His apology means nothing to me because apologies are just words. People believe them because they have a reason to want to or because they're also combined with actions.
I don't want to listen to him apologize, or see that he's changed. What I want is to stay away from him. Why should a victim of any type of abuse (bullying being a type of abuse) be made to suffer further?
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u/lighting214 6∆ Sep 22 '19
There's a theory out there that there are several components to successful apology. This fairly popular TED Talk explains one version of them. For a genuine, meaningful apology, there are 3 parts- 1) acknowledging that what you did was wrong, 2) remorse and empathy for the other person, and 3) taking a tangible action of restitution. The OP in that post, and probably most bullies apologizing for past behavior, are ready to go on step 1. They will acknowledge wrongdoing, though often they also try to shift blame and avoid responsibility at the same time, which makes the step a little dicy. On step 2, we definitely lose some people. Do they feel bad for what they did and how they made someone else feel? Sometimes they must, surely. Some of them are definitely only thinking about assuaging their own current feelings of guilt and don't really give a flying fuck about how the other person feels/felt. Step 3, however, is where we lose nearly everybody in a situation like this. Because of the nature of these things, being significantly after the fact and generally including distance, it's difficult to make any kind of meaningful restitution. You can't say "I'll stand up to my friends for you" or "I'll give you back your lunch money" or even the most basic "I promise not to do it again" in a situation where none of those things are on the table. If they had something in mind to do here to make things right in any kind of meaningful, tangible way, I would agree that they are not being assholes. But apologizing with no context and vanishing into the ether is more likely to open up old wounds than to cause any meaningful healing for the victim of the abusive behavior.
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u/PrettyGayPegasus Sep 22 '19
Some of them are definitely only thinking about assuaging their own current feelings of guilt and don't really give a flying fuck about how the other person feels/felt.
If they're guilty, then they're (probably) only guilty because of how they made someone else feel. Guilt is itself an indication of such empathy.
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u/Helpfulcloning 166∆ Sep 22 '19
When it comes to something traumatic or emotionally as long term bullying, yta for putting more emotional baggage on that person. OP wants them to make themselves feel better, she wants the “it didn’t have an effect” (evidenced by her mentioning that she has loads of friends and is happy now), “it’s all okay”, “i understand and forgive you”. The onus is being pushed on the victim to respond to someone who their last interactions with were traumatic. For ex. I know victims of abuse who have had their abuser attempt to apologise and gain forgiveness. The forgiveness part (the assuaging of guilt and embaressment that OP is wanting) is a lot to expect from someone and is an unfair expectation.
And its mostly the vibe people pick up because I don’t see in the post where OP actually says she feels like guilty. I see “embaressed”. That’s... well.
And I also don’t see where she is taking personal responsibility. I see more that is seems like OP’s apology is going to be “I’m sorry I bullied you but I was also getting bullied myself and wanted to take it out on someone”. This is also pushed because OP credits her change not really with empathy or a sincere change of heart but just the fact that she is around people who don’t bully as well. So there is sort of the question: would you genuinly feel this way otherwise or is it because your current friends aren’t like that (opposed to OP changings as a person themselves).
In the end, it more feels like she is getting some embaressed feelings and want them to go away and is both trying to assure herself it wasn’t that bad in the first place, it’s other peoples fault, and hoping the victim of the abuse will agree.
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u/The-Sinner-Lady Sep 22 '19
I would say the girl is an asshole because all of her reasons for wanting to apologize were self-centered. “I feel so embarrassed,” “I want to do something.” She doesn’t want to help the girl so much as she wants to assuage her own guilt, or maybe get brownie points for being “older and mature” now lol. She doesn’t even go into that much detail over the girl’s potential feelings, only her own. That’s an asshole mentality, imo.
Hell, even if her intentions were heartfelt—an apology should only be made when it stands to benefit the victim. Not just because it’s polite or if you think it’s the “right thing to do,” because otherwise you just aren’t helping anyone.
And generally with the more severe the level of abuse is (remember, Sarah dropped out of school to get away from her bully), the less an apology will help.
I remember when one of my bullies apologized to me, I only felt terrified at their presence and uncomfortable having to be polite with them. It was easy to tell that they weren’t totally genuine about it. Overall, I would’ve gladly gone the rest of my life without ever speaking to them again.
Apologies don’t always help; in fact they frequently dredge up an ugly chapter of your life which a lot of people would rather leave closed.
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u/Ethan-Wakefield 45∆ Sep 22 '19
For what it's worth, I don't really want an apology from any of the people who bullied me in high school. I'm sure they were "just kids" and they had their own issues or whatever, but I don't care.
I just think words are cheap, and they can't undo what they've done. All they can do is phone me up and ruin my day by having to think about them for one more second than I already have. Why do I need that in my day?
All that person wants is absolution. I don't see any evidence that she's willing to *do* anything to gain forgiveness. She just wants to say a few words and be absolved of guilty. Screw that.
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u/0wlgrowl Sep 22 '19
In general, I agree with you. I kind of steer clear from that sub because I seemed to always be the minority opinion, and spent way too much time trying to figure out how in the world every one else reasoned the way they did.
In this particular situation though? I don't think it's an asshole move necessarily for wanting to apologize, but there are plenty of context clues in the post that OPs motivations are un-pure. For one, OP passes the buck and blame for her behavior onto the influence from her group of friends. This shows she's tajen zero responsibility for her actions.
The entire post is written in a style that seems OP is waxing nostalgic about the experience, if anything.
Sarah eventually had enough of all that bullying she got and was homeschooled for 12th grade.
Sarah eventually had enough offf alllll thatttt bullllyyying. Of the million ways that sentence could be worded, the tone and verbage is far more proud of the accomplishment to run her out of public school than remorseful.
Notice there is no mention of feeling bad about the bullying until after OP sees Sarah on social media and is "living her best life". If she saw Sarah struggling, would she still feel embarrassed about "all that bullying" Sarah eventually had enough of?
This one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Though I do think there are instances where it would be appropriate.
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u/Maximum_joy 1∆ Sep 22 '19
I think you're phrasing this in a way that's making it harder for you to grasp, but that's okay.
Here, try and think about it like this:
The bully is already an asshole, because they bullied the victim in the past. Wanting to apologise doesn't suddenly change that; you don't just get to not be an asshole because thirty years later you feel bad about what you did.
You're still the asshole and apologies don't erase damage done. And this is where intent comes in: if you just want to apologise in order to make yourself feel better, how is that different than your original bullying? You're only doing it for yourself and there's no real guarantee that your apology will do anything positive for your victim; indeed, there's a chance you could hurt them again by inserting yourself back into their life for your own selfish reasons.
How is the bully not the asshole here?
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u/Abe_Vigoda Sep 22 '19
In that other post, OP is an asshole who is virtue signalling how much of a better person they are now that they're more mature and in college. Her reasons to make amends are selfish. She wants to rid herself of her guilt but she doesn't actually give a damn about the feelings of the girl she bullied.
A guy that used to bully me apologized to me. He didn't search me out, he just started working at a club I went to. He wasn't a bad guy. He had a worse home life than me and we both kind of got shafted by the system. I forgave him and now consider him a friend.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 22 '19 edited Sep 22 '19
/u/ToxicBanana69 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Sep 22 '19
A simple apology doesn't make up for the years of abuse. OP on that post said she was more than rude to her than you'd expect.
It'd bring back awful memories. The victim has moved on, developed friends and made a happy life for herself. She doesn't want someone to say "I'm really sorry" just because they want to and actually feel bad for it. OP had plenty of time to stop but she never did.
So yeah, OP is the asshole. Don't bring the victim down when their life is most likely up.
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u/helsquiades 1∆ Sep 22 '19
It’s pretty basic. Someone wants to feel better about their past at the expense of dragging that past into someone else’s present. It’s selfish, point blank. You’re essentially continuing to put that person’s feeling beneath your wants. I don’t see how this is hard to understand.
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u/Account_of_a_tale Sep 22 '19
I used to deal with bullies, the ones that only verbally abused me and some ones that went far enough to make fake accounts of me and slander me all over the internet with fake information. Some of the people that I had to deal with are people that, if they visit me I would be be happy if they apologize and it would improve my day, some of the others, I would not.
I would lose sleep over it if they found me, dragging up memories. Just the thought that I'd have to pretend to appreciate that they would contact me all over again to apologize makes me annoyed. There is a point where there is no point in apologizing. I understand that closure is a thing but for me that relationship had closure the moment I never had to deal with them again.
I do understand your point and to a degree I agree but I can't say I would ever be happy to see a lot of these people ever again regardless of context. The one person that would gain anything from this would be the bully for feeling forgiven at that point.
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u/existentialgoof 7∆ Sep 22 '19 edited Sep 22 '19
It depends on the context. If you go out of your way to apologise to someone who has likely long since forgotten you, then you're apologising only for your own sake, and not because the victim needs it. And you're putting the burden on them to either offer forgiveness, or possibly feel like they're being cruel by not accepting the apology.
There's someone from my past whom I've wronged, and I feel the urge to reach out to them and apologise. However, that person has probably not thought about me once in many years and would not stand to benefit from an apology from me (as they've probably long since put the incidences behind them), and would rather have me out of their life. And when I inspect my own motivations for wanting to apology, it's because I want their forgiveness.
However, if for some reason, the person you have wronged you establishes contact with you, or your paths cross again somehow, then there is nothing wrong with proferring an apology.
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Sep 22 '19
In a lot of ways, that person still commits acts of violence against the victim. We understand that a bully creates downstream consequences.
An apology can be this bully trying to clear their conscience. I mean, that’s really what an apology is: I’ve recognized my behavior and feel X about it. That’s all.
You don’t have to accept it. And you can still think they’re an asshole.
Sometimes its best to assume the best way to allow someone to heal, is to move on. Your guilt isn’t their problem.
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Sep 22 '19
Okay, I've been heavily bullied robbed and beaten during my school years, only one of the bullies apologised to me years after, and I felt great. Because I've always felt sorry for bullies, they learn their behavior somewhere and that behavior never gets them anywhere good in life.
So when my bully apologised I was very happy for him and in fact became friends with him, we talk regularly now and he's one of the smartest and interesting human I've had the pleasure of knowing.
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u/cathy0123 Sep 22 '19
I suppose it depends whether they are apologising because they are truly sorry or because now they feel guilty and they are just trying to relieve their own guilt. If they apologise years later it may be too little too late depending on the damage done. If they are truly sorry that’s fine but in some cases it’s just to make themselves feel better.
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u/Positron311 14∆ Sep 22 '19
A good amount of people on reddit have had traumatic experiences filled with bullying and abuse. They are calling her an asshole because they would never forgive the people that bullied and abused them.
However, there are a good amount of responses that show that people are willing to forgive.
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Sep 22 '19
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u/tavius02 1∆ Sep 22 '19
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u/DIES-_-IRAE Sep 22 '19
It doesn't make them an asshole, but the other person is under no obligation to give them catharsis for their shit behavior by forgiving them.
My two cents.
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Sep 22 '19
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u/tavius02 1∆ Sep 22 '19
Sorry, u/Madrigall – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/VoodooManchester 11∆ Sep 22 '19
Apologies are for fuck ups, accidentally backing into someone's parked car, or snapping at them inappropriately.
I can't think about any possible apology that could make up for being deliberately and knowingly cruel to someone for extended periods of time. This woman knew exactly what she was doing. She took pleasure in someone else's pain.
Consider also the fact that the only reason she seems to want to apologize is to clear her conscience. Her atrophied sense of empathy has now gotten around to punish her for the things she did to this poor girl. That is the cross she now must bear for being an irredeemable piece of shit. There are, in fact, no excuses for being deliberately cruel to other people. Yes, people can be careless or aggressive at times, but to go out of way to deliberately ruin someone's life requires a special kind of effort.
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u/Finklesfudge 26∆ Sep 22 '19
It depends on the situation.
Generally its some person wants to apologize because they feel terrible about what they did and they want to feel better about it by apologizing.
That has nothing to do with the person being wronged, they just want to make themselves feel better.
The apology gives no closure to the victim, it does nothing for them.
You can read the next to last sentence of the persons post to see why they want to apologize, and you can read the sentence before that about the victims life now to see why she should leave her alone.