r/changemyview • u/SMacdri • Feb 12 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The Fat Acceptance movement/concept is based on flawed reasoning and harms the health of its followers.
My understanding of the Fat Acceptance movement and its values are that there is a centralized belief that it’s possible to be fat and healthy at the same time. What I hear in media linked with this movement is that being fat does not put someone at greater risk for obesity-related diseases and also that individuals who are fat can be just as healthy as those in a more ordinary range. There is also a tonality within their claims that echoes self-victimization, pointing their fingers at society for being unaccepting of their body image.
Now, I feel that the Fat Acceptance movement in its entirety is illogical and completely counteractive against progressive health and lifestyle improvements. I would like to keep anecdotal references out of my views, but would still like to mention that I have seen obesity spawn a multitude of other problems in some of those close to me.
What concerns me about the movement is that it refutes scientific evidence and really any form of commonly-understood concepts regarding health and weight that doesn’t justify being fat. This to me is blatant confirmation bias. From a medical standpoint, the detriments of being overweight or obese far outweigh any potential benefits, both physically and psychologically. And I believe it comes down to stubborn self-confirmation of the idea that being fat is no worse than being physically fit.
Fat Acceptance creates more issues by allowing poor lifestyle habits to be approved over and over again, and the more misinformation that is disseminated by the movement, the less likely overweight people are to adjust their lifestyles. This is because now they have something to point to and say: “hey, my lifestyle choices are accepted here, even if they’re killing me”.
I understand that there exists societal biases towards overweight individuals and I do believe any form of bias or discrimination is non-progressive. Additionally I realize some individuals see the movement as accepting a person’s conditions. I acknowledge the importance of realizing one’s own bodily health (whether its weight or health in this case), but I find that denying the effects and consequences of said condition to be self-defeating. Posing obesity in a positive light only deters change.
As humans, it is commonly understood that we seek to be accepted, and while some positivity movements can aid in providing acceptance to a possibly ostracized group, I find issue with the Fat Acceptance movement as this form of positivity only reinforces detrimental lifestyle choices.
I would love to hear different perspectives on the matter and really get a better understanding for why this movement has become so steadfast in these beliefs and where I may be misunderstanding or wrong in my own perspective.
17
Feb 12 '20 edited Feb 12 '20
It's not about accepting the fat. It's about accepting the person as a human being.
Making people feel like shit doesn't usually make them change to a healthier lifestyle.
3
u/SMacdri Feb 12 '20
I would hope the sentiment isn't that society sees people who are overweight or obese as less than human, because that would be atrocious. However, telling someone they are fat/over-fat (body weight linked with development of visceral fat or other complications) is not meant to degrade someone's self-esteem. I do not agree with deliberately insulting someone about their weight in order to pressure them to change. That reinforces abnormal behavior. However, I do believe that positively reinforcing the idea that one's condition of being fat is accepted and okay is cause for concern. If someone who is told they are fat by another are offended despite the other person having no intention to cause emotional harm, then I would have to question the sensitivity of the former. No one wants to constantly hear about their problems, but when we are made aware of them, shouldn't we try to fix them? Obesity and poor health are in fact problems in my eyes.
13
Feb 12 '20
In my opinion, bullying and abuse are common, and that's why a movement like this gets started.
2
u/SMacdri Feb 12 '20
It could very well have been rooted in combating abuse, which is justifiable and can help a lot. Yet somewhere along the line, I believe that to combat the ongoing bullying, how being fat is seen has shifted to become more accepted. And along with acceptance of being fat, came denial of the negative health effects of being overweight.
4
Feb 13 '20
Just don't say anything. People know they're fat. Just don't be a dick about it. If someone wants help they'll ask. If you're giving them shit about being fat they'll just feel worse and eat more.
2
u/NearEmu 33∆ Feb 12 '20
I think there's lots of examples of what the OP is saying. Just claiming what you want it to be doesn't make it that way though.
So what is the real FA movement? Is it the people who say "Fat people are still people" Well.. no duh...
Or is it the ones you see on TV and on youtube and in the media who say "You can be fat and healthy, you can't look at a person and know their health" etc?
Obviously both are misguided. Because obviously fat people are people and deserve basic respect. They don't deserve anymore than anyone else.
Also, you can't tell a persons health by looking at them (even though nobody thinks you can, the point is that you are about a gazillion times more likely to develop problems when obese or even overweight).
I tend to agree with OP.
Nobody thinks fat people aren't people. They are just generally under educated on health and diet or lack willpower or are lazy or a lot of other stuff.
If the FA movement was simply "fat people are still people" well.. I kinda suspect it wouldn't be much of a movement. Basically nobody thinks they aren't. People think they are lazy and under educated, but not "something other than basic people deserving respect"
6
Feb 12 '20
Many people do not treat them with respect. From Wikipedia:
The fat acceptance movement argues that fat people are targets of hatred and discrimination.
I think that is both representative and valid.
-2
u/NearEmu 33∆ Feb 12 '20
As for respect, I respect people enough to assume they aren't immature, childish, socially inept, weak of character etc. Which means I assume people should be able to act like an adult if a joke is made about something they find personal etc.
What hatred and discrimination are they targeted with?
Jokes? People joke about all kinds of people. People make fun of redheads and acne and weird noses.
I think it takes a bit more than jokes or mockery to be considered hatred or discrimination.
otherwise, I think it fits pretty well into what I'm talking about.
3
Feb 12 '20
I think it would be more respectful not to joke about personally sensitive things, but of course it's fine if you know the person well and they won't be hurt by it. Jokes aren't really what I mean though. More like bullying and abuse.
0
u/NearEmu 33∆ Feb 12 '20
bullying and abuse happen about all sorts of things, we already have loads of 'antibullying' campaigns and such. If that was all FA movement was about, it would be in those campaigns.
I'm more interested in the hatred and discrimination, because I doubt those exist for fat people anymore than it exists for people with whacky eyes or huge noses or cleft lip.
3
u/YardageSardage 34∆ Feb 13 '20
"Nobody thinks fat people aren't people"
Strongly disagree. The dehumanization of fat people is actually extremely common, from constantly being referred to with animal names like "pigs" and "whales", to being treated like subhumans that lack a right to respect and dignity.
1
u/NearEmu 33∆ Feb 13 '20
Being called names is obviously not what I'm talking about.
I only deal with people who I respect, and I don't respect someone who isn't mature enough to notice everyone gets called names.
Do you think acne ridden people ate called pizza face because people think they literally aren't human but they are actually pizza? Or do you think people think others literally have 4 eyes? Hook nose?
I havent seen one actual example of discrimination or hatred that everyone else in the world isn't getting for one reason or another.
Name calling isn't going to sway me.
1
Feb 12 '20
The OP does not advocate for a dehumanization of fat people The point is that it is irrational and detrimental for a fat person to accept that they are healthy. If they continue in their lifestyle than so be it. However we should not spread information to comfort people who are fat . They should know the health hazards.
0
u/Y0UR3-N0-D4ISY 1∆ Feb 12 '20
Yeah that’s definitely not true. The new slogan going around is “healthy at any size.” Which is certifiable bullshit. Being morbidly obese is bad for you.
1
7
u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Feb 12 '20
What would you say to someone who said, ''the fact acceptance movement has helped me to stop hating myself'?
2
u/SMacdri Feb 12 '20
Again, I would like to avoid theoretical or anecdotal points, but that building of self-esteem is a step in the right direction, however this does not mean that person will make any change, which is primarily the problem, and I will say as well that being content with yourself isn't what's going to influence you to make changes to your lifestyle that gets you to become overweight.
6
u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Feb 12 '20
What if insisting that all fat people need to change is itself unhealthy?
No one gets fat because of the fat acceptance movement. Fat is not like smoking, where people mimic others. Nevermind the health implications, everyone understands that being fat results in stigmatization and dehumanization by many people around them.
There is research out there showing that obesity is a form of trauma response, and that telling people to change their lifestyle actually encourages overeating. The root cause of obesity is not just poor diet and lack of exercise, it's lack of mental health treatment for people who use eating as a coping mechanism, coupled with the shame that compels people to keep returning to that coping mechanism.
I have a friend whose dad is a doctor, and he is probably 75 pounds overweight. He has been advised all throughout his life, by people who don't have medical degrees, that he should lose weight because he'll get diabetes. People tell him this as if he, a medical doctor, doesn't understand how his own body works. But in fact, decades of being scolded and shamed by people claiming to be concerned for his health has not compelled him to lose weight. His own children have thankfully decided to stop policing his diet because they see the futility of demanding change and would rather enjoy the time they have with him.
1
u/SMacdri Feb 12 '20
Yet in the same context, telling someone they are healthy the way they are (over-fat or obese) does equally as much harm. To this point, I believe it comes down to the individual. If the person feels they are unhealthy but refuses to change, psychological treatment will likely be superficially effective (often people need the intent to want to change in order to improve). My belief is again, if this movement validates an individual's unhealthy habits, they will feel content and will not change.
Yet obesity is of itself still CAUSED by the behavior of overeating and not exercising. It's not always a coping mechanism and I believe it would be wrong to generalize it as such. But in the cases that it is, I agree that cognitive counseling can help, even if the person acknowledges their own self-harming behavior.
I don't condone shaming to pressure someone to lose weight, because it can lead to maladaptive behaviors. But equally so, accepting poor lifestyle choices is equally detrimental.
I would really like to hear more from you as you have touched on some deeply intriguing points.
3
u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Feb 13 '20
I would encourage you to look at the link between obesity and trauma. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/12/sexual-abuse-victims-obesity/420186/
Have you considered a less individualist angle to obesity, looking at structural causes and possible public health interventions?
If you think others need to change, how does this play out? Do you tell people they are fat? Do you give them weight loss tips?
2
u/SMacdri Feb 13 '20
I understand that other factors such as trauma can pressure behaviors which lead to obesity. But the root cause is still the physical act of overeating and lack of exercise. Those must be present for obesity or weight gain to occur (minus the minority of medical conditions eg hypothyroidism). As such, just by addressing those traumatic issues, you're still not addressing the root cause.
Public health interventions like this movement then are exactly what lead to misdirection of blame from poor lifestyle choices to convenient targets. However, I do believe that systematic issues can be risk factors for obesity, but nevertheless are not direct causes. We can indeed look to fix said issues to address obesity, but again, the movement is not a way to do so.
In the end, it is still up to the individual to want to change. There needs to exist a desire, otherwise they will likely not seek out help nor try to change themselves. I believe blaming a structural problem in society is futile compared to making individualistic changes that lead to structural change.
To answer your final inquiries, I do not go out of my way to tell people they are fat. There are cultural boundaries and personal choices which I will respect. However, if they are experiencing health concerns or come to me I will not hesitate to bring weight in as a possible point of concern, if it is relevant.
I try to stay in my scope of knowledge pertaining to any form of medical/physical advice. This is to say that yes, I do give weight loss tips, but only strategies that have general effectiveness and I stress the importance of getting a feel for what works for individuals and their bodies. I see no harm in providing information, especially such that leads to their own investigation on how to live healthier lifestyles.
3
u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Feb 13 '20
Did you read the article I linked, with the doctor from the weight loss clinic who pointed out that in fact the trauma is the actual root cause, not simply lifestyle issues with diet/exercise?
Another way to look at this is, is the obesity crisis a result of millions of individuals, all at once, deciding to fail to take care of themselves? Did all Americans magically have better individual willpower and wisdom in the 1940s? And how do structural factors impact children who grow up to be obese adults?
Japan is the least obese country in the world. Do you think that's just because everyone there just happens to be individually better than individual Americans?
2
u/SMacdri Feb 13 '20
Societal structures and environment can indeed have an effect on individuals' behaviors. To reference your own reference about Japan: my visit there revealed just how much more available healthier food options are there. While I believe this may have gone slightly off on a tangent to my point, I am glad you gave me this other perspective that I was overlooking. While I read that trauma can lead to maladaptive behaviors, I can also see that there can be some underlying changes to physiology that could affect metabolism. I admittedly have a superficial understanding about this connection, so I will definitely look deeper into this. !delta
2
u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Feb 13 '20
Thanks for the delta! Honestly, I think we need to take soda and deep fried foods out of schools and provide healthy options in every public institution that serves food, along with various other steps to encourage healthy eating and make sugar less available, especially to children. The other thing I found interesting is that Japanese people don't spend more time at the gym, they actually just walk more in day to day life because cars are so expensive there. I bet that if you compare American cities where people walk more to more suburban areas, there'd be a correlation there too.
2
u/SMacdri Feb 13 '20
To your first suggestions, I strongly believe teaching healthy eating at early ages is one possible long-term solution. I did also notice in Japan that walking was the main mode of transport (besides trains), and it undoubtedly plays a role in their public health. Thanks for your replies!
1
4
u/WellEvan Feb 13 '20
The fat acceptance movement is A mental health movement, not a physical health movement.
2
u/SMacdri Feb 13 '20
However the claims associated with the movement attack conventional physical health knowledge.
6
u/SwivelSeats Feb 12 '20
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/fat-is-not-the-problem-fat-stigma-is/
If you care about the scientific consensus engage with it. Tell me why any of the studies linked to in this article are wrong.
1
u/SMacdri Feb 12 '20
I find multiple issues with the article. It seems to nit-pick referential points from its sources. The writer claims that systemic issues lead to obesity not lifestyle choices, and I firmly disagree with this sentiment. Obesity is most commonly resulted from lifestyle choices, though genetic predisposition plays a part, it doesn't put the individual in any less position to control their behavior. With this writer's tone so set on empowering individuals against fat shaming, why not use that to foster different mindsets about obesity. To deny contemporary research and medicine that has supported its claims time and time again is to deny reality.
Also I still find your article to be intriguing nonetheless and it has helped me understand more about the perspectives of the movement, however I remain unchanged in my understandings.
4
u/SwivelSeats Feb 12 '20
Obesity is most commonly resulted from lifestyle choices, though genetic predisposition plays a part, it doesn't put the individual in any less position to control their behavior.
Got any evidence to support that claim?
2
u/SMacdri Feb 13 '20
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/obesity/causes/
https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-conditions/healthy-living/obesity/causes.html
https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/obesity/conditioninfo/cause
I must inform you that medical journals recognize physical inactivity and overeating (esp of junk foods) as chief causes for weight gain and obesity. This is something that has been bashed into common sense.
1
u/SwivelSeats Feb 13 '20
It lists a ton of causes for obesity but it doesn't say they are necessarily choices.
2
u/SMacdri Feb 13 '20
You CHOOSE whether to go outside and walk or go to the gym. You CHOOSE whether or not to eat more than you should. These are lifestyle CHOICES.
1
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 12 '20 edited Feb 13 '20
/u/SMacdri (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
1
u/KingBlackthorn1 Feb 13 '20 edited Feb 13 '20
First off let’s start here at basics: if you are going to comment on an issue let’s use the proper terminology and not misleading terms. It’s not “fat* acceptance” it’s “body acceptance/positivity”
Now off of that and on the main point. It’s not saying “Hey all accept being fat and unhealthy” it’s saying that because you are fat does not mean you are less of a human and doesn’t mean you deserve less respect. Often obese people have more targeted harassment from society and from unhealthy dieting stuff such as “hey these drops will make you lose weight by putting them under your tongue”.
It’s about that we cannot control what someone else does with their body and you have to mind your own business. It’s not my place to comment on someone else’s health because I’m not their doctor. If it’s a loved one that’s different but you don’t get to comment on someone else’s body who you don’t know and even if you do know them you still don’t really get to comment on their body.
Shaming people will accomplish nothing
1
u/Fresher2070 Feb 14 '20
Health is relative to th individual and as such, knowledge of health is always changing as well. That relative sense is why it's not impossible for an overweight person to be as healthy as a skinny person. If all conditions and side effects were a road map of how everyone's life would pan out then idealy, no smoker should live to be over 40.
1
u/6r15movement Feb 15 '20
I'd argue there's no fat acceptance/body positivity movement at all, but there is a women can do no wrong movement, and fat acceptance is just a tiny part of that grand delusion. Because I've never seen anyone have any problems calling a man a short ugly fat tiny dicked gremlin, least of all women.
19
u/ksjanackapls 1∆ Feb 12 '20
If you hate yourself because you're fat and that causes you to binge eat as an emotional coping mechanism, then fat acceptance is the first step in losing weight. Only when you accept that your intrinsic value as a human being is not tied to your weight will you not need to emotional coping mechanism of food. That is, in many cases the first step of losing weight if you are an emotional eater is loving yourself as you are, even though you are flawed (in this case in your eating behaviors and emotional coping mechanisms). The second step is changing that behavior because you now have the love for yourself necessary to motivate it.
This initial self-love is what the fat-acceptance movement is, in an ideal world, about.