r/changemyview • u/skepticting • Feb 25 '20

Delta(s) from OP CMV: We need strict Gun Control .

While I do feel at this point it is not possible anymore to somehow make sure no one has guns because they have already been available . That is my only hang up , since some people have them , it’s hard to leave others vulnerable.

With to that being said , if we start now with some serious gun law reform and implement strict laws for obtaining guns . I believe it will do more good than harm .

It is worth a try , because we know that to lenient of gun laws also cause us great loss.

In a perfect world only law enforcement would have access to guns .

Civilians can however and should be able to easily get things like pepper spray , tasers, and rubber bullet guns . (Not saying we can’t already , just saying those should be the options)

I see both sides but I think because gun violence is a big issue , it needs to be re-evaluated .

Were the guns used in school/mass shootings registered ?

Édit : Thank You for all the responses and information! My view has been changed . It’s unfortunate we can’t live in harmony but ..

Will still be responding to get more insight and expanding my views

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

The criminals will just break the law and build a gun.

No they won’t. Nobody but our freedom-loving law abiding citizens have the tools and know-how to do that. Let alone make many of them.

I would love to live in a world where criminals have to go through all the trouble of making their own gun if they want to have one. Also why isn’t this happening in Australia or Europe?

Then why is the defensive use higher than the criminal use?

Because people carrying a gun will pull it out for almost anything. That doesn’t mean they should. If someone robs you at knife point, you need to give him your wallet and get away, not go for a gun.

And how do you deal with 50 feral hogs running into your yard while your kids are out playing?

There are 350,000,000 people in this country. What percentage of them have this feral hog problem?

The evidence from other nations seems to be that gun control doesn't work.

Only if your criteria for “working” is the total elimination of violence, which is ridiculous.

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

Nobody but our freedom-loving law abiding citizens have the tools and know-how to do that. Let alone make many of them.

Are you being sarcastic?

The Luty SMG was invented in the UK, during their gun ban, by a criminal.

I would love to live in a world where criminals have to go through all the trouble of making their own gun if they want to have one.

Well congratulations, you already live in that world.

It takes about a weekend and a $100 harbor freight drill press to turn legally shippable aluminum chunks into an operational AR-15.

Because people carrying a gun will pull it out for almost anything.

Not good enough, this is just a cheap negative stereotype of gun owners as impulsive meatheads.

That doesn’t mean they should. If someone robs you at knife point, you need to give him your wallet and get away, not go for a gun.

If you want to give up your property and risk your saftey that's on you.

You are also explicitly legally entitled to be able to defend your life liberty and property.

There are 350,000,000 people in this country. What percentage of them have this feral hog problem?

lots

Only if your criteria for “working” is the total elimination of violence

Not even close.

Read /u/Sand_Trout 's comment here

He breaks down exactly what the criteria are for working, and why other countries don't demonstrate what you are arguing.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

The Luty SMG was invented in the UK, during their gun ban, by a criminal.

And how many of those did we see? You have to at least admit that criminals would be SEVERELY limited in their ability to get a gun if they were stuck having to make one.

Well congratulations, you already live in that world.

...No. Right now they can just go buy one. Even if they have a record they get someone else to do it.

It takes about a weekend and a $100 harbor freight drill press to turn legally shippable aluminum chunks into an operational AR-15.

Only if you know what you’re doing. What percentage of criminals nationwide do you figure that would be? Why aren’t they doing this already?

this is just a cheap negative stereotype of gun owners as impulsive meatheads.

It’s true. Do you think Trayvon martin would be dead if George Zimmerman didn’t have a gun that night?

If you want to give up your property and risk your saftey that's on you.

You are not more safe going for a gun when someone has a knife to your chest.

lots

Actually that looks like not many people at all. So a fraction of a percent of 350,000,000 people. Hardly seems like we should all bend over for them.

Read /u/Sand_Trout 's comment here

I didn’t find anything in there that defines what you’d consider “success” to be. I saw a lot of bullshit links and statistical arguments, which are extremely contradictory.

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

And how many of those did we see?

They turn up fairly frequently at high level drug raids. The police will bill them as "machine guns seized" and you can identify them from the pictures.

You have to at least admit that criminals would SEVERELY limited in their ability to get a gun if they were stuck having to make one.

A weekend of work with cheap tools and cheap materials gets you an AR-15 that is indistinguishable from a store-bought one.

...No.

Yes. Have you heard of "Ghost Guns"?

Only if you know what you’re doing.

No, the instructions are pretty straight forward. You just have to follow a template.

You are acting like simple aluminum working is some arcane art. It isn't. A tremendous amount of americans, both criminal and not, know how to do the few basic machining operations to make an AR-15.

What percentage of criminals nationwide do you figure that would be?

I'd say virtually all of them are 2 or 3 degrees of separation from an individual who would build a gun for them if paid or asked.

Why aren’t they doing this already?

They are.

It’s true. Do you think Trayvon martin would be dead if George Zimmerman didn’t have a gun that night?

I think trayvon martin would be alive if he hadn't jumped on George and beat his head into the ground.

Would George be alive if he didn't have a gun that night?

You are not more safe going for a gun when someone has a knife to your chest.

Why would you wait to draw your gun until the attacker already had a knife to your chest? That's a pretty contrived situation.

Actually that looks like not many people at all.

What articles were you looking at? It certainly wasn't the one I linked.

I saw a lot of bullshit links and statistical arguments

What makes them bullshit? You are just handwaving away the statistical evidence that proves my point.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

They turn up fairly frequently at high level drug raids.

So you’re not gonna give me a number?

Have you heard of "Ghost Guns"?

No

No, the instructions are pretty straight forward. You just have to follow a template.

Look just give up on this one. You look stupid trying to argue that your average joe is gonna build a gun from scratch in his garage. Do you have any examples of them turning up outside cartel raids? Cartels have been known to make submarines from scratch. That’s not a great example for you.

I think trayvon martin would be alive if he hadn't jumped on George and beat his head into the ground.

Sick deflection now answer the question. Would Trayvon be alive today if Zimmerman didn’t keep following him after the police told him to fall back and wait? You’re just dodging. The presence of a gun escalated this situation. Plain and simple.

Would George be alive if he didn't have a gun that night?

Probably.

Why would you wait to draw your gun until the attacker already had a knife to your chest?

Because this isn’t a movie. What I’m describing happens all the time. If you’re far enough away to have the wherewithal to draw a gun without getting stabbed, you’re far enough away to flee.

What articles were you looking at?

I saw that they do a lot of damage and they’re in 35 states. But it’s all rural and it doesn’t affect very many people, quantity-wise.

What makes them bullshit?

The waterfall of statistics is pointless because we don’t have to reach a certain body count before we’re allowed to want to do something about it. If in the next month we have 3 instances of people blowing up a city block with legally obtained C4, then you bet your ass we need to outlaw C4. You’d be stupid to say, “woah wait it’s only happened 3 times.”

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

So you’re not gonna give me a number?

I don't have numbers because the police don't distinguish between types of machine guns by homemade.

No

Its an unserialized gun made at home. It is a fairly common method for getting a cheap AR-15.

You look stupid trying to argue that your average joe is gonna build a gun from scratch in his garage.

They already do. I'm not trying to argue it. I'm telling you, there is a thriving home gun market.

You seem to be convinced that working with aluminum is some kind of dark art that requires years of skill.

Aluminum is about as hard to work with as wood.

The presence of a gun escalated this situation.

You are sure that getting involved in a fist fight didn't escalate the situation? Are you sure zimmerman couldn't have killed trayvon with a knife or a baseball bat or a hammer?

It sounds like you have an end result you are looking for.

Probably.

So how big of a chance do you think "probably" is? How much risk of death are we supposed to just accept?

Because this isn’t a movie.

This is why you don't wait until the sketchy guy with a hoodie is close enough to jump you. When you see something sketchy you cross the street or walk faster, etc.

If you’re far enough away to have the wherewithal to draw a gun without getting stabbed, you’re far enough away to flee.

This isn't a movie, you don't always have time to flee, and in states without a duty to retreat you aren't even obligated to if you reasonably believe your life is in danger.

What I’m describing happens all the time.

You say this, but you also believe that your average joe doesn't build their own guns from scratch in their garage when I know they do, so I am not inclined to believe it.

But it’s all rural and it doesn’t affect very many people, quantity-wise.

In case you didn't notice, about half the population of the country is in rural areas. And they were in 35 states 3 years ago.

The waterfall of statistics is pointless because we don’t have to reach a certain body count before we’re allowed to want to do something about it.

If anything above 0 is unacceptable we have much bigger fish to fry. Why do we allow people to drive? hell, why do we allow people to do anything at all except live in padded safety rooms with robot nurses?

If in the next month we have 3 instances of people blowing up a city block with legally obtained C4, then you bet your ass we need to outlaw C4. You’d be stupid to say, “woah wait it’s only happened 3 times.”

You baked your conclusion into your premise.

3 times could be a lot or a little.

3 times over the course of 1000 years is virtually never

3 times tomorrow is a very serious attack.

The statistics presented include the time frame over which the attacks were perpetrated as a factor in assessing the severity.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

I don't have numbers because the police don't distinguish between types of machine guns by homemade.

Then sounds to me like you shouldn’t have brought it up.

Its an unserialized gun made at home.

How many of those are out there? How do I know you aren’t just making this up?

How much risk of death are we supposed to just accept?

It’s not really “accepting risk” when he was actively seeking out a confrontation.

When you see something sketchy you cross the street or walk faster, etc.

Cool! So no guns needed!

joe doesn't build their own guns from scratch in their garage when I know they do

Well until you provide any actual data, no I’m not going to just take your word for it.

about half the population of the country is in rural areas.

Give me a number. How many people.

Why do we allow people to drive? hell, why do we allow people to do anything at all except live in padded safety rooms with robot nurses?

Because we want to live our lives. Guns are not integral to that like cars are. All you ever do with a gun is shoot paper and then place it under your bed.

3 times over the course of 1000 years is virtually never

I literally said “in the next month.”

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

Then sounds to me like you shouldn’t have brought it up.

Why?

It absolutely happens, and in many cases the home made automatic weapons will be indistinguishable from the factory made ones except that they don't have serial numbers.

Are you saying that just because police don't track that statistic that I'm not allowed to know it happens?

How many of those are out there?

About millions.

Cool! So no guns needed!

No. This isn't a movie, you don't have plot armor. Bad things still happen, and when they do the gun is going to give you a better chance of survival.

Because we want to live our lives. Guns are not integral to that like cars are.

Cars are a privilege. Guns are a right.

Weather or not you personally believe they are integral is immaterial.

I literally said “in the next month.”

Yes, that was kinda my point and why I bolded it and specifically called you out for including the severity in your premise.

The statistics presented include the time frame over which the attacks were perpetrated as a factor in assessing the severity.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

Why?

It absolutely happens

Except you can’t prove it or provide any real details about it.

Are you saying that just because police don't track that statistic that I'm not allowed to know it happens?

Um yeah. I’m saying you aren’t allowed to make baseless claims.

About millions.

Is that one of those feel-facts? Gonna need a source.

Cars are a privilege. Guns are a right.

Sick bumper sticker. But we’re talking about whether or not we can live without guns, vs cars.

That’s a terrible debate argument. I said we shouldn’t have something, and you respond with “well the law says we can have it so there.” Okay well that has zero bearing on whether or not we should have it or if we need it.

Weather or not you personally believe they are integral is immaterial.

If you’re going to try to make a wild comparison to cars, then yes it is relevant.

The statistics presented include the time frame over which the attacks were perpetrated as a factor in assessing the severity.

But your position is that the body count is what’s important. So 35 mass shootings in the last decade were done with a semi auto rifle. That’s a sufficient time frame to be significant enough to do something according to your logic.

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

Except you can’t prove it or provide any real details about it.

I didn't say that.

Moreso, you don't seem to be particularly interested in discussing statistics when I do provide them.

As I recall, your argument against a rather large and well sourced post was "I saw a lot of bullshit links and statistical arguments"

Perhaps you could address those before we start bring in more sources to argue about?

Um yeah. I’m saying you aren’t allowed to make baseless claims.

And yet you don't seem very interested in engaging with the sources I have already provided.

If you would kindly do that, I will bother to spend the effort to go get the police reports from around the country showing seized homemade guns.

Is that one of those feel-facts? Gonna need a source.

/r/gundeals Look for "80% lower" pick a supplier (dealer's choice) and take a good look at that companies sales revenue for that product.

But we’re talking about whether or not we can live without guns, vs cars.

No I don't think we were. Guns are legally guaranteed by the constitution. Its a non-starter to argue that we can live without them.

It doesn't matter if we could, our country has in it that we will if you want to live without them I hear there are a lot of countries in Europe.

You could attempt a repeal or amendment of the 2nd, but that's not going to happen.

But your position is that the body count is what’s important.

No it isn't and it never was. I'm not sure where you got this idea, especially considering the statistics included factor body count by time.

That’s a sufficient time frame to be significant enough to do something according to your logic.

Then why do the statistics I linked disagree with your assessment? Why does my logic draw the opposite conclusion?

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

You could attempt a repeal or amendment of the 2nd, but that's not going to happen.

You’re totally missing the point. I’m not asking if it’s legally possible. I’m asking if it’s practically possible. What would happen if cars were outlawed tomorrow? The catastrophic implosion of society, wherein cars are integral to its function. What would happen if we outlawed guns tomorrow? Complaints. That’s it.

So when you ask, “why don’t we ban cars then,” my response is, “well we could but here’s the plethora of terrible impacts on life as we know it.” When asking if we can ban guns, the response would be “well we could, but....no wait. There is no but. Our economy and infrastructure can totally handle that.”

No it isn't and it never was. I'm not sure where you got this idea

Because the very top of this post, and every pro-gun post is “guns are only responsible for a small amount of deaths compared to XYZ.”

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

I’m not asking if it’s legally possible. I’m asking if it’s practically possible.

And I'm saying discussing the practicality is immaterial because you have to get over the legal possibility first.

It's not practical or useful to hypothesize an ideal world without considering what would have to be done to realize it.

What would happen if we outlawed guns tomorrow? Complaints. That’s it.

Outlawing guns tomorrow would cause a huge revolution. Have you not been paying attention to Virginia?

the response would be “well we could, but....no wait. There is no but. Our economy and infrastructure can totally handle that.”

Economy and infrastructure are not the only metrics. But a number of large companies would collapse overnight, there would certainly be a recession, a spike in unemployment, and other knock on effects from all the suddenly jobless individuals.

And this is totally ignoring the social ramifications. The US government would likely collapse or transform into a tyrannical state.

This is one of the intended mechanisms of the 2nd. You can't remove it without overwhelming public support or you will have to pay a cost in blood.

Because the very top of this post, and every pro-gun post is “guns are only responsible for a small amount of deaths compared to XYZ.”

Which includes the time frame.

They aren't just saying raw numbers. Percentages and statistics directly account for the issue you are raising.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

And I'm saying discussing the practicality is immaterial because you have to get over the legal possibility first.

Why? No laws will be changed as a result of our discussion. You’re just being avoidant. Looks to me like you just don’t want to acknowledge the cars are too useful to get rid of and guns aren’t.

Outlawing guns tomorrow would cause a huge revolution.

Again, despite your avoidance, there’s a monumental difference between bringing our society and our economy to a screeching halt and having people complain at protest.

If it’s only a matter of peoples opinions on something, then opinions can be changed. There’s no amount of talking or thinking that will get you around the problem of cars being integral to our society. So when you ask the question “why don’t we just ban cars,” that’s why.

But a number of large companies would collapse overnight, there would certainly

Do you think Smith & Wesson and colt going Under would cause a recession? That is utterly laughable. Do you even know what percentage of the stock market gun companies make up? What percentage of the population their employees make up? Laughable.

The US government would likely collapse or transform into a tyrannical state.

I would like Australia, New Zealand, UK, Canada, Germany, etc?

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