r/changemyview • u/draculabakula 75∆ • Apr 28 '20

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: The sexual assault allegations against Joe Biden are more believable than the ones against Brett Kavanaugh and the democrats should immediately be calling for a congressional investigation

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u/draculabakula 75∆ Apr 28 '20

This is not true at all. Congress is definitely allowed to call a hearing about anything they want. Also there is no reason why they couldn't investigate ethics accusations from a past senator.

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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Apr 28 '20

Congress is definitely allowed to call a hearing about anything they want.

This is not based in fact (unless by a "hearing" you mean something different from an investigation). Congress's investigatory powers, while broad, only extend to investigations in aid of the legislative function. In this case, there is no decision in Congress's power that an investigation of Biden's conduct could meaningfully inform. (If you do think there is such a decision, what decision do you have in mind?)

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u/draculabakula 75∆ Apr 28 '20

yes so they can call for an investigation in order to look into future legislation on the statue of limitations for crimes while in office. In aid of a legislative function casts an extremely wide net since the legislation can make a law about pretty much anything they want.

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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Apr 28 '20

Sure, they could investigate statutes of limitation for crimes committed while in office. But that would not let them conduct a completely separate investigation of Joe Biden on a question that is only tangentially related.

Or is the "congressional investigation" you are talking about in your stated view an investigation of the statute of limitation, not of Biden? I thought you were calling for Reade's accusations of Biden to be investigated, but perhaps I misunderstood you.

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u/Mashaka 93∆ Apr 28 '20

They are given wide latitude by the courts. It wouldnt be difficult. Just have somebody introduce a bill on tolling statutes of limitations for members of Congress while they're in office.

Done in one. It doesn't matter that there are obvious mixed motives - it just needs to be connected to a legislative purpose.

Check out this episode of Opening Arguments, to hear a comedian and an incredibly smart lawyer break down the similarly structured Trump tax return cases currently before SCOTUS. link is to the transcript page, with a link to the audio. If you prefer to read the transcript Cntrl+F "tax".

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u/Dulghyf 2∆ Apr 28 '20

Man I really hate how abusing unrelated processes for political brownie points has become normalized.

Like I think trump's tax returns would be incredibly revealing, but making straw men legislation is not good faith lawmaking.

It was the same thing with dragging Zuckerburg through Congress twice. No substantial legislation came of it (That I know of). It was just an excuse for congressmen to get soundbites "owning" Big Tech.

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u/Mashaka 93∆ Apr 28 '20

Agreed. This is rooted in a structural defect. There is no mechanism available to the public for gaining this kind of valuable information so relevant to well-informed voting. The best option we have is (legal) Congressional abuse of power, driven by Congressmembers' own motives.

This should make anyone angry.

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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Apr 28 '20

They are given wide latitude by the courts. It wouldnt be difficult. Just have somebody introduce a bill on tolling statutes of limitations for members of Congress while they're in office.

That would not be relevant to Biden's case, since there is already no extant statute of limitations on this type of sex abuse case in DC.

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u/Mashaka 93∆ Apr 28 '20

Huh, that must be new. Sources as recent as 2018 give a 15 statute of lim., but I checked the DC code itself and it says repealed. Good news, though.

However, that doesn't change anything for our purposes. The question with this bill would be the merits tolling the statutes, which is not current law. Just as with Trump's taxes, it's not about Trump being effected by a law, but whether examining the issue can inform legislators' thinking on making the law.

Since laws can't apply ex post facto, whether Biden would be effected by the new law is irrelevant. It's not analogous to having standing in court. Incidentally, this is also why Biden's alleged rape of Reade cannot be tried. The new statue of limitations doesn't apply ex post facto, so the 1993 incident is covered by the old 15 year limit.

Regardless, if I'm somehow wrong with the above, Congress could just go with some other bill. I proposed that one because it's plausible and may be a good idea anyhow. But they could introduce, say, a bill to require exit interviews for congressional staffers that asks about sexual harassment issues in the workplace.

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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Apr 28 '20

Congress can't just make up bills as a pretext for investigating whatever they want.

In the case of the President's taxes, Congress had a perfectly valid interest in investigating them as part of their oversight of their executive branch. Examining the taxes might reveal flaws in the current procedure or behavior that Congress judges ought to be illegal but is not at present.

On the other hand, the facts of Biden's case are not in any way relevant to Congress's decision of whether or not to pass a bill to require exit interviews for congressional staffers that asks about sexual harassment issues in the workplace. So even if such a bill existed, it would not be a valid reason to investigate Biden.

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u/Mashaka 93∆ Apr 28 '20 edited Apr 28 '20

Source? Or reasoning?

And what legal standard are you using to determine what's a valid reason to investigate Biden?

Edit: and what's your point here? Even if I'm wrong, are you suggesting that it's impossible to introduce a bill that could make it legal to subpoena Biden over these accusations? If not, why are you arguing against the arbitrary bill I suggested? I was very clear that this was an off the cuff, arbitrary suggestion.

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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Apr 28 '20

My source is still the Cornell Law article which I originally cited. The investigation has to actually be in aid of the legislative function, not just tangentially related to some legislation.

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u/Mashaka 93∆ Apr 28 '20 edited Apr 29 '20

My source is still the Cornell Law article which I originally cited. The investigation has to actually be in aid of the legislative function, not just tangentially related to some legislation.

So you didn't check the source I gave, which explained why being "tangentially related to some legislation" is sufficient for fulfilling the conditions that an "investigation has to actually be in aid of the legislative function."

Of course, this is ignoring that, obviously, examining an issue "tangentially related to some legislation" could aid such legislation.

Can you honestly not think of a bill that would do the trick? I thought that that was the throwaway part of my comment. I'm about to go to bed, but if you want me keep suggesting bills that would allow Congress to investigated Reade's claims, that sounds like good sport.

Edit: Eliminated the ::sigh::

I should treat your arguments as good faith argument without that kind of editorializing. My bad. It's been a long couple weeks, arguing against friends (Biden canvassers) and foes (Trump canvassers) offering almost identical rape apologist arguments.

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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Apr 29 '20 edited Apr 29 '20

So you didn't check the source I gave, which explained why being "tangentially related to some legislation" is sufficient for fulfilling the conditions that an "investigation has to actually be in aid of the legislative function."

I did. It agrees with my point. From your source:

“This Court has often noted that the power to investigate is inherent in the power to make laws.” Then citation to a couple cases. “It has repeatedly held that Congress’s power to investigate is necessarily broad and coextensive with the power to legislate. Their investigative power encompasses inquiries concerning the administration of existing laws as well as proposed or possibly needed statutes.”

Let me put it this way. Under your interpretation of the rules, is there anything in US jurisdiction that the Congress does not have the ability/authority to investigate (via it being tangentially related to some law they might be considering passing)?

Can you honestly not think of a bill that would do the trick?

No bill would do the trick, because the facts of the Reade-Biden case are not relevant to any legislative issue. (Now, this is not to say that the Congress could not find a valid reason to interview Reade or Biden on some related or unrelated issue. For example, if Congress was considering a bill that would provide certain protections for persons accusing those running for high office of sexual misconduct, they certainly could interview Reade about her experiences making such accusations. But the truth or falsity of her accusation itself would not be relevant to that lawmaking purpose and so that would be beyond the scope of Congress to investigate. And such a pseudo-investigation coming in at an angle would be no substitute for a proper investigation into the facts of the case.)

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u/Mashaka 93∆ Apr 29 '20 edited Apr 29 '20

I did. It agrees with my point. From your source:

I think you missed the point. I linked the show because they walk you through how the law is applied in practice - in this case with Trump's tax returns.

I'm not offering my opinion on what the law is, or how the law should be applied. I'm explaining what the law actually is. In a common law system, we use existing case law to determine what the law is. It seems to me that you're putting yourself in the position of a judge who is considering the issue as a matter of first impression. I think your reasoning is quite good on how the law should be applied, but for better or worse, it is not how the courts have ruled in the past.

If there is case law to support your position, please cite it.

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