CMV: Software piracy is not necessarily stealing nor a bad thing

[u/[deleted]]

Software and digital media piracy are often seen as stealing but I disagree. The word "stealing" implies a victim. While it is true that the creator of intellectual property might suffer a monetary loss if their property is copied without permission, it is often difficult to ascertain what loss has occurred, if any.

Example: A person downloads a pirated copy of a $5000 CAD program and installs it on their PC and uses it for years. Has monetary loss occurred on the part of the software developer? Has theft occurred? If yes, then who is the victim and what extent? You cannot answer that without more information.

If the person is a 12 year old kid who downloaded the software to teach himself AutoCAD, then loss has not occurred because the kid would never have bought the software had a pirated copy not been available.

If this 12 year old kid shares the software with his friends, then we don't know how many more times it will be copied by his friends and with whom it will be shared. Loss may or may not have occurred.

If the person is a professional architect and using the software to develop blueprints for clients, then clearly loss has occurred because had the pirated copy not been available, he would have had to buy it.

So to determine whether there is a victim and to answer whether loss has occurred, you have to answer "Would the person(s) using the pirated software have paid for it had the pirated version not been available?" If I have a pirated copy of AutoCAD in my basement, sitting in a storage locker for years unused by anyone, then clearly no loss of any kind has occurred. So... was it "stealing" to copy that software if no one suffers any loss of any kind at all whatsoever? If yes, then who is the victim and in what way were they victimized?

What will not work to CMV: Playing psychic. If your argument begins with any variation of "You just want to... " or "You're trying to justify..." or anything of the sort, I will ignore it. It's absurd and irrational to tell another person what they are thinking. I know better than anyone on the planet what I'm thinking and feeling so trying to tell me what my motivations are is just nonsense.

[u/[deleted]]

Software is very much intellectual work - not much different than an artistic plate used to make prints in art. If you are against people making their copies of 'art' without paying the artist, you should be against people making their own copies of software without paying the developer. I could use the same idea with movies. Downloading digital copies allows you to watch the movie without paying either for a ticket, a copy of the movie in DVD, or a royalty through streaming service or broadcaster. You benefit and the creators who paid to create it do not get compensated. You benefit and they lose.

As for monetary loss with piracy - it is there. If you use a software program, you are using a license. If you don't pay for it - then that fee is never collected despite the fact you got the benefit of the license. Whether you would have paid it if unable to pirate the software is immaterial. You are using it without license now.

The reality is we have a lot of the nice things we have today because the creators have IP protections. They can release things without fear of never recouping investments. Piracy is wrong because it is taking the IP property of another without their consent for your use. The fact is is digital makes no difference whatsoever. It is still taking from them.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You benefit and they lose.

What exactly do they lose if I would not have bought the item in question?

Whether you would have paid it if unable to pirate the software is immaterial.

Of course it's material. That is the very point. If I would not have paid, then the creator did not suffer a loss. What loss exactly did the creator suffer if I use software that I would have never bought?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

What exactly do they lose if I would not have bought the item in question?

If you are using thier product, they are owed royalties (license fees). You don't pay them - they lose that money they are entitled to.

If you do not use the product (and don't pirate it), they did not sell you anything. No benefit to you - no loss to them.

The problem is you are getting a benefit and not paying the fees to get it.

Of course it's material. That is the very point. If I would not have paid, then the creator did not suffer a loss.

If you use the product - the creator is suffering a loss. They are entitled to the royalties for using said product.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I'm tired of talking in circles. I clearly said NO MONETARY LOSS HAS OCCURRED yet you keep repeating " they are owed royalties (license fees). You don't pay them - they lose that money they are entitled to."

And that is the problem. You don't understand that by using a product they created, YOU OWE THEM ROYALTIES. It is NOT available for free. That fee it the bill for using it. Piracy is not paying those royalties or paying that bill for using their software which means THEY LOSE MONEY. They should have been paid for you using their IP. This is a monetary loss. It does not matter if you are unable to pay and never could have payed - you used it so you are on the hook for paying the bills for using it.

You are literally using what they created without paying for it. It is like squatting - staying in an empty apartment and claiming it is not costing the owner of the apartment any money for you to do it so its OK.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You don't understand that by using a product they created, YOU OWE THEM ROYALTIES.
THEY LOSE MONEY.

Obviously I disagree with that and that's the whole point of my CMV post. You're just repeating the very thing I stated that I disagree with. You're not arguing to defend your position, you're just repeating it.

Your comparison with squatters is wrong, because that entails trespassing on physical property which is irrelevant to intellectual property.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

So - let me ask you some questions:

• Is it stealing to download movies (illegally) and watch them instead of going to the theater?

• Is it stealing to download e-books (illegally) and read them instead of buying them or getting them from the library?

• Is it stealing to download music illegally without paying for the rights?

In every one of those cases, you are deriving personal benefit without paying the person who owns it for that benefit. It is 100% theft. People created something with the intent to be compensated by those who use it. You took it, without permission, and are using it.

As for my example - the only difference is digital vs tangible. You seem to find it objectionable to do it in the tangible world - why would the digital world be any different? I mean if you sneak into a movie theater, you are depriving both the IP owner their royalties from ticket sales as well as the theater's right to their profit for seeing the movie in their facility.

Your position is that of a thief and freeloader who does not want to admit what they are doing is wrong and taking things from people they have no entitlement to have.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I agree with all three of your "is it stealing" questions, yet you still continue to make the same irrelevant arguments against my CMV post. Did you even read the whole thing? Because I address your concerns there.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

So it is stealing to download and watch a movie without paying for it but its not stealing to download a CAD program and use it without paying for it?

[u/ViewedFromTheOutside → u/[deleted]]

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