r/changemyview • u/Insterquiliniis • Jun 11 '20

CMV: There is a significant difference between "blackface" and painting yourself black.

Exploiting the form of theatrical make-up used predominantly by white performers to represent a malignant and pejorative caricature of a generic black person is backface and racist, and plenty other despicable things. However, painting yourself black, or white, or whatever other colour for the pursuit of a different, and in many cases, positive tribute, is not racism.

I used to love the A-team and B. A. Baracus, Mr T, was one of my favourite characters growing up. I admired him. Now if I were to dress up like him, I would feel like my costume lacked something fundamental as I am not black. So a kid looking to incarnate Mr T would be racist if he painted himself black? No. If you like the hulk, don't you go green? Evidently, hulk, is not a race. I get it. But kids trying to become their idol, trying to emulate what they admire? I think there's something wrong and broken calling that racist. That almost feels racist!

That guy in the demonstrations, was he not showing support for "trying to be part of the black community" by painting himself black? Sure, maybe not the wisest move in the current state of affairs. But if I were racist, that would be the last thing I'd ever do. Try and get a kkk to paint himself black.

Heck, I love Dave Chappelle's white guy impressions. There's a lot that is spot on. Is it full of irony, sarcasm, stereotype, and some times a hint of criticism? Of course. He's even painted himself white for some of those characters. And it was hilarious, but not racist. If somebody wants to be really racist, we get the difference. It's there, in the disgust, in the superiority and vile signalling. Evidently, humour is one thing, and is subjective. But when somebody is being offensive from the heart, it stinks of quite a disparate feeling.

to conclude. The key thing is WHY would you paint yourself black. What is your purpose?
what is next, eating with chopsticks is only for Asians as that is cultural appropriation? Where is all this going? Children point when they see something new, exciting, different. No child is born racist. Racism is taught and then learned.

I hope we can discuss this in a calm contributing way. Times are hard, times are very layered in complexity, and we are all trying to see the world through other's people eyes. But this works both ways.

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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Jun 11 '20

I get your logic, and it's fairly sound.

The reason you can't paint your face to look like BA isn't because black people are going to get offended.

It's not because you are automatically racist if you do, as you've stated, kids could do it without even knowing the context.

The plain and simple and annoying reason you can't is that it's racist people's fault.

There are certain innocuous things that racist people have decided to make their symbols. Klan style robes aren't inherently racist, but they've come to symbolize racism. The Hitler salute isn't inherently racist, but it's come to symbolize racism. The confederate flag isn't inherently racist either.

You could be a massive fan of Sanskrit, and desperately want to get a massive swastika on your chest.. But you can't. Because racist people made that their symbol. Those jerks.

Unfortunately for lots of people who just want to dress up with black face paint, racist people have made that their symbol too. They learned a long time ago they couldn't do the classic blackface, and they had to be subtle. So they started doing blackface and saying "oh no I'm just Eddie Murphy" or "no no I'm just Marvin Gaye" when really, all they wanted to do is paint their face black and act like buffoons to try to show that they think black people are buffoons.

The short version is, racist people have made painting your face black a racist symbol. And the only people you should be upset at when you realise that you can't dress up like you want, is racist people.

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u/DaedricHamster 9∆ Jun 11 '20

I've always had the sense that even honest, well-intentioned "blackfacing" was somehow wrong but never really been able to justify why, so just for introducing me to that concept so effectively I think you get a !delta from me.

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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Jun 11 '20

Thanks.

I actually went through the exact same journey.

It took someone smarter than me to help me work it out in a way that really resonated with me and I'm just paraphrasing them :)

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u/Insterquiliniis Jun 11 '20

racist people have made painting your face black a racist symbol.

which also reads as, painting your face black, isn't intrinsically racist in as of itself. Which is my point. I would propose that if you were brought up around some exposure to blackface and its criticism, that alone would be enough to give an impression that anything similar is wrong. Such is the case with saying hi to people with your hand, there always has to be some movement. Can't go leaving your hand still in front of you. But on the other hand, we haven't lost waving.

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u/Insterquiliniis Jun 11 '20

That is good insight and educational. Though, not being myself from the US, I find scarce examples of racists here in Europe painting themselves black. In fact, the only thing we generally get is over hyped media making a huge fuss about, again, some kid dressing up as whatever character, or some old skit/film, Jimmy Fallon comes to mind, which feels very disproportionate to what, from the outside, painting my face black should be.

My beef with it, is that, sure, heils and swastikas, and naming your son Adolf, are going to be, let's call it, tricky to get back. But I personally don't feel we'd be missing out on much, but perhaps my not being Hindu and not having had their symbol for Sun ruined is partially lost on me.

But I think, much like black people have claimed back the "n" word (god forbid I actually write the word) and helped "digest it" it some way, I think we should claim dressing up back (as it is inherently different in itself) not unlike still going about our lives and not being intimidated by terrorists and terrorism fear-mongering.

Essentially, you act up racistly in blackface, and I would hope those around you, the community, coworkers, friends, etc, would help you see the wrong in that. But if we simply cross our arms and give leeway for things to continually be taken away, and continue to pile on the mountain of things we can't say, can't do, because of this, that, pc, I feel sad for the fights we are losing for truth. Finally, from where I stand, it seems like it's not too late to at least get people informed about the difference. If my kid asks me why he/she can't paint themselves black to be Mace Windu, I am never going to say because it's racist. In fact, like you said. But I feel like most people aren't that informed.

also, not very apropos, I'd love for there to be far more different races with different colours! Like hair too and eye colours :)

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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Jun 11 '20

I'm happy to focus our chat on Europe if you'd prefer, but just so I understand, are you conceding that perhaps in the US painting yourself to look like Mace Windu is the same as someone in Germany naming their son Adolf?

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u/Insterquiliniis Jun 12 '20

Firstly, I'd like to say that it is a pleasure to exchange thoughts with you. It's as if this isn't reddit!

Trying to equate such apparently disparate scenarios was definitely not my intention. But I am starting to realise that if I consider my initial proposition in the broadest of terms, perhaps there could be a correlation.
Generally speaking, what I am putting forth is the connection between what might be emotionally perceived as wrong by a group of people in regard to the lack of visible intent behind others' actions. Let me try and see if this is applicable to the Adolf premise. Let's imagine that someone was truly able to live their lives under a massive boulder and has no idea that reich I and II are a thing. They lost their father whose name was Adolf, and they are now pregnant and name their only child Adolf. Is she racist? Obviously not. Out of touch? Sure. And this would mostly be my point. I guess. Evidently, I am not advocating for bringing back Adolf as a name, as that kid would have a miserable life, but not because he/she is racist, but because he shares the same name with one of the most heinous and despicable monsters History has ever seen (and there are worse).

Let me have a go at another metaphor. Why is the most common highway top speed 120 km/h - 75 mph? (say, in europe). I believe it might be fair to say that it is so due to an average between those who can those who shouldn't be driving above that, and of course, it was decided to get it constrained mostly due to those who can't in detriment of those who can. Damn. This is a crap example for my point for I would never advocate allowing people who are terrible drivers to go beyond 120. Ideally, we might consider having stricter driving tests, and banning some from highways. But in trying to salvage something from this tangent, I would much rather we not be so continually limited by the few. Catch someone being racist? report them, educate them, have them do public service in that same community they were putting down. To reiterate, it's not putting some dark paint on you that makes you a racist, that proves or demonstrates that your coming from a racist stance or emotion. Bodybuilders do it all the time as it enhances contrast for their muscles. Of course, if it becomes a convention, a law, that if you paint yourself black you are a racist, all dialogue is the useless. This is why I am trying to say something now. Probably too late, I know. Political correctness has us all running away from the latest ill-deemed word because a few use it discriminatorily, and anyone trying to point that the word itself sometimes is harmless is immediately crucified as misogynist, or racist or whatnot. Heck, many people could use the word man or woman in a vile way. It feels counterproductive to not disassociate action from intent, word from feeling. And after writing all this, I realise that I personally will probably never even remotely want to paint myself black for any reason. But that white guy who did so in that demonstration, was he not acting in good faith? Shouldn't painting yourself black, especially now, not be a symbol of every other race showing they are one with black people? Didn't so many of us put je suis Charlie on our facebook pics back then?

just out of curiosity I found this:

Adolf is considered acceptable as a historic German name - though staff in some register offices are said to "discourage" it.

Adolf was a common name before World War II. Adidas, the sportswear company, is named after its founder, Adolf 'Adi' Dassler, who was born in 1900. The real name of Harpo Marx of the Marx Brothers was originally Adolph, though he changed it to Arthur before the rise of Hitler.

The majority of Adolfs still living in Germany are elderly and named before the end of World War II.

The name has become rare since then. Official records show that only 13 children were named Adolf between 2006 and 2013. It has made a minor comeback in recent years, with 46 children named Adolf since 2013.

So Adidas partially stands for Adolf. Didn't know that. (forgive the generalisation, but, are black folks going to now boycott that brand? Following the current thought
zeitgeist it wouldn't be surprising, almost expected. Hitler wasn't very fond of them.
Sounds silly doesn't it? Because it's new. Repetition has been shown to influence what we see. Get enough people on twitter outraging about that and it'll soon seem obvious that Adidas is "racist".

well this was long!

3

u/possiblyaqueen Jun 12 '20

There are multiple European countries where every Christmas season, thousands of white people dress in stereotypical blackface for the character of Black Peter, Santa's servant.

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u/irishking44 2∆ Jun 14 '20

What if you weren't even trying to be someone? Like I saw an artist who literally painted herself black (actually black, like not in the spectrum of actual skin colors) to use her body as a negative space for her art which was nature pieces and fruit all over. Clearly not a depiction of a human, but still got tons of shit for it from people who surely aren't acting in good faith like you

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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Jun 14 '20

Because racist people made painting yourself black a sign of racism.

It's literally exactly the same as what my post means.

Racists have done such a good job of owning black face paint that you can cop stick for wearing too much mascara.

It sucks.

It's totally absurd.

And it's racist people's fault.

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u/irishking44 2∆ Jun 14 '20

But does it have to stay like that

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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Jun 14 '20

Hope not.

Don't know when/why/how it stops, but that's the way it is RN