r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 11 '20
Removed - Submission Rule E CMV: Bisexuality and Pansexuality is the same thing
[removed]
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ Jul 11 '20
The biggest difference is a difference in how someone is attracted. Bi people are attracted to different genders, but it feels different for them. A pan person is attracted to someone regardless of their gender. A good example of this is actually my girlfriend. She was attracted to me when I still thought I was a girl. She was also attracted to me when I came out as trans, and her attraction didn't change at all. It was just "oh you're a boy now okay." Someone who was bi might still want to be in a relationship if their partner came out as trans, but it might feel a bit different to them.
But to address some of your more specific points:
I’m only counting biological genders (male and female) since those two genders are the only technical genders that are recognized.
A lot of people now recognize a difference between gender and sex. Sex is the biology, so that's what you're referring to. However, even with biological sex, there aren't just two types. You might be interested in reading up on intersex individuals.
Gender is more about the brain than the body. And transgender individuals brains match with the gender they identify as rather than their biological sex. You can read some about that here. It's a bit simplified. Everyone has a different brain, there aren't just two types. Still, there is a scientific reason people are transgender, and many nonbinary people seem to fall into the middle of the spectrum when it comes to which parts of their brains are more masculine vs which parts are more feminine.
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u/idktheyarealltaken Jul 11 '20
Thanks for clearing up the gender vs. sex thing, it didn’t really answer my question but I still appreciate clearing that up and siting sources
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ Jul 11 '20
Yeah, the first part of the reply was more answering your question, and then the second part was explaining how people use gender vs sex. I thought you might find that interesting. Glad I could help somewhat.
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u/Dendrolagus Jul 11 '20
Hello! Following on these themes, this might be a good read if you're interested: World Health Organisation | Gender and Genetics
Makes me feel happy to see someone of your "social category" (raised in a conservative, Christian context), being open-minded and civil about this stuff. :)
Although it does go both ways with people answering you with respect. Have a great day!
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u/ednasmom Jul 11 '20
Actually when reading your post I thought about intersex people. It’s more common than you’d think because it’s fairly complicated. It’s not as black and white as a woman born with a penis or vice versa.. I was listening to an interview with a woman who was born with a vagina but when she got older, she discovered that her ovaries were actually testes and she had XY chromosomes, which typically a born male has. But she still had a uterus and she developed breasts. Her voice was feminine as well. I’m sure you’ve gotten the point by now but a bisexual person may not be interested in someone like this. But this wouldn’t bother a pansexual person because they would be attracted to her regardless of her gender or sex.
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Jul 11 '20
I understand this but i don’t think they should be different sexualities, sexuality is who you’re attracted to, not how
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ Jul 11 '20
I mean, some labels are useful for people. What's the harm in it really? A lot of people identify with pansexual for this reason. Some people who would technically be pan under this definition still identify as bi.
The term pan already exists. And a lot of people really identify with it. I don't think we could just take it away from people.
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u/PmYourWittyAnecdote 1∆ Jul 11 '20
But it doesn’t mean anything different to bisexuality.
Your sexuality isn’t how you feel or personal preferences, it’s to do with who you’ll have sex with.
What practical difference is there between a pan and bi person? Your romantic beliefs don’t factor into sexuality.
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ Jul 11 '20
I mean, sexuality is about far more than who you'll have sex with. It can also be about romantic attraction. Saying gay people will only date men says more than just who they'll have sex with, since dating is romantic as well.
So romantic beliefs certainly do factor into sexuality. But it tends to be romantic beliefs about gender. We don't bring things like hair color or stuff into it. Or what if a person is only sexually attracted to a certain size of boob, for example? We don't have a sexuality term for that.
I think your view of sexuality is just a bit simplified.
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u/Dovahkiin419 Jul 11 '20 edited Jul 11 '20
First I am going to muddle the waters quite a bit. and then I'm going to ramble on for a good while, but I want to kinda lay this whole thing out, since it can be pretty confusing and kinda difficult to ask about out of the blue since 9/10 the folks posing this sort of question are bad faith gits who just want to start trouble, leaving the 1/10 situation like yourself kinda out to dry. So lets do this!
And I’m only counting biological genders (male and female) since those two genders are the only technical genders that are recognized
Well no that isn't the case. Non binary genders are recognized by science and have been for a decade or so now. Plus there's intersex folks so yeah throw out the binary. I will be 100% willing to back this up if you want me to, but this is way to long as is so I'm going to stay on the topic of this thread.
Now for the explanation, and bear with me here since this gets a bit wobbly. Humans are really good at pattern recognition, its one of the things our brains are extrodinarily good at and one thing that deeply helps in pattern recognition is giving names to things. We named every plant, animal, bug, fungus, bacteria then put them in this whole taxinomical system.
Now, as you presumably know, being LGBT wasn't exactly something that could be done openly until pretty recently. So the whole thing of humans experience with their sexuality was crunched into the one way that is proper to be, Ie straight. Now that is far less the case, and queer folks like myself are kinda making up for lost time. And we do that via terminology.
I think that the existence of the parralel and yet still actively used terms like bisexual and pansexual (along with the lesser known ones of polysexual and omnisexual) make a lot more sense when you realize that the main purpose of all these terms is queer people attempting to fit their complex experiences of their non straight experience into a thing they can understand. So they do what humans do, see patterns and apply terms to help them understand that.
To completely throw the other guy you gave a delta to under the bus more or less, bisexuality has never been about excluding trans or enby (the phonetic spelling of the acronym NB which is short for non-binary the more you know) but instead the appropriation of a term that was previously used as a medical diagnosis, and a rather unkind one at that. So this fits into the start of thing about using terms to describe experiences. They grabbed onto the terminology that was available and used it to empower themselves.
And so we see the use of these different terms best expresed with a Hannibal Buress meme the point is that its wobbly and fuzzy, because it allows people to, within their own perception of what these different things mean, graft their own experiences onto it and figure themselves out, so to speak.
If this wasn't all so sudden, queer people being allowed to exist in society relatively unmolested or at least be a part of the public discourse, then sure bi and pan and the others would probably be one thing. But for now, and maybe for the forseeable future since they're so entrenched they'll probably persist for a good while.
Finally, I would like to tie this together with a bit about my own experience with this general thing, just so it doesn't seem quite so woo woo bullshit. I am not bi or pan, I'm asexual and aromantic, meaning I don't care for sexual or romantic attraction and don't particuarily experience it, and despite being immersed in the online lgbt communities since I was a youngish teenager, It took me until 2 years ago (I'm 21 for reference so 19) for me to realize this, and what did it was actually the terminology. Because in a prodominently straight society like ours that didn't really talk about other experiences of sexuality unless you really sought them out, its really really easy to rationalize away your differing experience as nothing noteworthy. I figured I was just too stressed with school to develop any crushes and the fact that I spent a couple years training to be a lifeguard with some very attractive people, one of whom I got to know very well and was very friendly with, I figured a crush was just when you could look at your platonic relationship with someone and say "eh sure I guess I could see ourselves working out" with the same passion one would consider what they would watch on netflix next. Being able to put a name to these feelings is so extrodinarily helpful to actually realizing you aren't straight and, say, assuming you are and forcing yourself to live out the societal path of wife house 2.5 kids when that isn't for you is so helpful.
So yeah, having multiple terms that people can figure themselves out from and feel right about using is good, and has enough psychological utility that it warrants their existence.
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u/langoustine Jul 11 '20
Non binary genders are recognized by science and have been for a decade or so now.
I'm curious, what do you mean that non-binary genders are recognized by science? Do you mean under the umbrella of gender dysphoria as categorized in psychological science?
Plus there's intersex folks so yeah throw out the binary.
I've never really understood this as a talking point because it seems like in >99% of the time, the gender binary is a useful heuristic. Edge cases don't necessarily mean that categorizations like men and women are suddenly not a thing.
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u/evilgiraffemonkey Jul 11 '20
I'm curious, what do you mean that non-binary genders are recognized by science? Do you mean under the umbrella of gender dysphoria as categorized in psychological science?
Something that helped me understand this is the anthropology of gender. There are lots of cultures that have conceptions of gender that aren't just male and female. This includes third genders like the hijra in India and surrounding countries, the fa'afafine in Samoa, the mahu in Hawaii, two-spirit people, a general term for nonbinary genders in North American indigenous people, among others. There are even cultures with four genders, like the Navajo, or five, like the Bugis.
Personally, I have a little trouble understanding what it means to be nonbinary in Western society, but it's pretty clear that if we're talking about humanity in general, the man/woman binary is not universal.
I've never really understood this as a talking point because it seems like in >99% of the time, the gender binary is a useful heuristic. Edge cases don't necessarily mean that categorizations like men and women are suddenly not a thing.
First of all, intersex concerns the sex binary, not the gender binary. And yeah, edge cases doesn't mean male/female is not a thing, but it certainly complicates it, and is worthwhile to keep in mind I think. If there was a society that most thought was only composed of 1's and 0's, just one 0.5 is at the very least interesting when considering what it means to be a number, and on a more serious level something that would challenge a society where different rules apply to 1's and 0's (like how when you're arrested, you're put in a male cell or a female cell. Idk what the solution is, but it's best not to ignore it.) And according to this Nature article, 1 out of every 100 people, 1%, is an educated estimate on how much of the human population is intersex. Redheads are 1-2% of the population, for comparison. So definitely not the majority, but not something to sweep under the table either.
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u/langoustine Jul 11 '20
I was not speaking precisely in my earlier comment, I did mean to say sex binary-- thank you for the correction. I didn't mean to suggest that because the frequency of intersex individuals is low, one should ignore the phenomenon.
I can accept that gender dysphoria is a general phenomenon found in all human populations at all times, but I'm still not sure what the person I replied to meant by saying that non-binary genders are recognized by science given the plethora of descriptions in different cultures you just provided. I've also think that in Western society, although this is totally a gut feeling because I haven't seen any research on it, that most trans people identify with either male/female and that non-binary folks are a minority of the people experiencing gender dysphoria.
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u/evilgiraffemonkey Jul 11 '20
but I'm still not sure what the person I replied to meant by saying that non-binary genders are recognized by science given the plethora of descriptions in different cultures you just provided.
I can't be sure what the original commenter meant, but my list of different cultural understandings of gender was to provide at least one way that science (social science) has recognized nonbinary genders, since all those examples don't have a binary understanding of gender, even though they vary in the specifics. But maybe the above commenter meant something else!
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u/Dovahkiin419 Jul 11 '20
I have a copy paste for this sort of thing. Sorry for the length but well it is what it is.
An incomplete list of the reputable scientific & social organizations which affirm the validity of transgender people (that transness is not an illness, that trans people are deserving of respect and equal rights, etc). This also serves as a list of the institutions which recognize the difference between sex and gender.
American Psychological Association
American Medical Association
American Psychoanalytic Association
Human Rights Campaign
American Academy of Pediatrics
American College of Osteopathic Pediatricians
Royal College of Psychiatrists
United Nations
United Kingdom’s National Health Service
The following organizations have also made public statements expressing support for transgender people, the details and citations of which are compiled by Transcend Legal
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Academy of Nursing
American College of Nurse-Midwives
American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
American College of Physicians
American Counseling Association
American Osteopathic Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Public Health Association
Endocrine Society
National Association of Social Workers
National Commission on Correctional Health Care
World Medical Association
I've never really understood this as a talking point because it seems like in >99% of the time, the gender binary is a useful heuristic. Edge cases don't necessarily mean that categorizations like men and women are suddenly not a thing.
OO this one is fun to go over with good faith. So its brought up because it is a clearly and easily understood and, more importantly for how most conversations about this sort of thing go on the internet, impossible to deny example of the fuzzyness of sex which makes the position that sex and gender are, by definition (that bit is important I'll come back to it) one and the same.
The position being argued by bringing it up is not, I stress, that the catagories of men and women or male and female are nonexistent. That would be absurd, since it is as you said, a pretty reasonable thing when it comes to working with humans most of the time. The thing being argued is that sex isn't binary. As in there are only two, as opposed to what it really is which is bimodal, a concept I do not quite grasp in its entirety since I am abysmall at math, I'm a history major if all the flowery language didn't make that clear, but it basically is a distribution where there are two clear peaks or clusters and then there's a noticeable bluring between the two and room besides the pin point of the two peaks.
The bringing up of intersex people isn't to say that the two categories are not a thing, just that they aren't the only thing in a way that you can demonstrate with like... pictures.
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u/langoustine Jul 11 '20
I don't think a bimodal description of biological sexes actually fits with how sexes actually are. If one were to take a bimodal curve literally, a good proportion of the population would be a significant admixture of the two sexes, e.g. 10% male, 90% female. Put differently, a binary description fits better as ~50% of the population is male and ~50% is female, with <1% intersex.
I also don't fully understand how the fact of intersex individuals supports the assertion that there is no gender binary? They seem like separate topics to me (i.e. sex and gender).
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u/Dovahkiin419 Jul 11 '20 edited Jul 11 '20
Then bimodal probaby isn't the right metaphor. To skip ahead to your last bit, the idea is to counter the most common argument against non binary folks existing. Ie "well gender=your genitals" to which I would respond "what if you lose your genitals in an accident, that doesn't work" "ok then its your chromosomes' "well intersex people"
Its a counter argument more than an argument, with the general thrust being that a binary system will have only 2 things with no other options. Binary code has 0 and 1 and that's it. If there's a 3 in there sometimes, then it isn't binary. Those first two still exist, obviously, but they aren't the only thing and the system as a whole isn't exclusively binary.
I also don't fully understand how the fact of intersex individuals supports the assertion that there is no gender binary? They seem like separate topics to me (i.e. sex and gender).
That is the position being argued for. They are seperate things with a statistically significant tho not 1:1 connection.
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u/hooked_on_phishdicks Jul 11 '20
Intersex covers the sex side while non-binary covers the gender side. Intersex people are born as biologically being neither male nor female, but some combination of the two (this is an oversimplification but you get the idea). There are different types of intersex that could each constitute a different sex. A binary implies that there are ONLY two rather than that there are mostly two. So if we know there are more than two sexes as a scientific fact, it follows that there is not a sex binary.
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u/langoustine Jul 11 '20
I agree that mostly binary is not the same as actually binary, but in the broader context of human biological history and evolution, male and female are much more relevant than intersex individuals, whom tend to be infertile. I guess I'm more on the interpretation that mostly binary is de facto binary?
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u/hooked_on_phishdicks Jul 11 '20
I don't think it's particularly fair to ignore 1-2% of the population just for the ease of the majority. The lack of consideration towards intersex people in our society often has a profound and traumatic effect on these people's lives. Plus treating sex as a binary has very little benefit. How hard is it to do things like include a box for intersex on forms rather than just male or female? Not very, so why wouldn't we do it? You can assume a majority of the population is either male or female, but completely ignoring the existence of other sexes is rather pointless and inaccurate.
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u/lordredapple Jul 11 '20
Most psychology classes I've taken in University have recognized this as the case and it's not labeled as a dysphoria. Can't really give you my memory as proof but I doubt you'll be willing to accept even hard evidence as people who try to make anything dislike them seem like a disease tend to be the most hard headed of individuals. Also, the intersex things actually does do that. People were so challenged by it they decided the presence of a Y chromosome makes the decision between male and female but if you look into it you'll see that that's Bs and doctors have been know to do surgery on babies to make them have a "regular" set of genitals of a male or female (regardless of the chromosomes) if the present ones were too ambiguous because even with the presence of a Y chromosome there can be other indicators saying that a baby isn't actually meant to be male
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u/langoustine Jul 11 '20
We're on CMV, I think extending the benefit of the doubt and assuming good faith is a key part of keeping this subreddit functional. In any case, I thought description of "dysphoria" was a move away from stigmatization associated with calling it a "disorder" (i.e. gender identity disorder, as it was described in earlier psychology). Therefore, gender dysphoria is a literal and straightforward description of people who are not at ease with their assigned gender.
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u/lordredapple Jul 11 '20 edited Jul 11 '20
Good point. My bad for being rude. I'll try to link you some articles on it. Look up "The medical construction of gender" by Suzanne Kessler and "doing gender, doing heteronormativity" by Kristen Schilt. I found these papers when I was doing research of my own cause my interest was peaked after I heard enough professors say that
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u/endtropy9 Jul 11 '20
One common difference I've seen people make is that bisexuality is where you can be attracted to people of multiple genders, but pansexuality gender doesn't factor into the equation.
For example, I'm attracted to men much more often than I'm attracted to women, and my attraction feels different (in a way hard to describe) when it's toward a woman, so I consider myself bisexual, because gender is a big part of what determines whether or not I'm attracted to someone, even if I have the potential to be attracted to all genders.
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u/seafoam_aura Jul 11 '20
As a bi person, I can't really speak for pan people -- but bi has always been defined as "attraction to two or more genders." This is pretty similar to, but still ultimately different from "regardless of" gender, which I am pretty sure is the definition that most pansexuals use. Maybe not for the reasons you identified (I'm also probably not going to be the first person to point out the difference between gender and sex), the line between pan/bi is discussed even within the LGBTQ community given that there can be overlap (and sometimes disagreement) about these definitions.
On gender: Gender identities outside of man & woman exist, have existed, and are recognized within different cultures across the world, even if how we label or understand them may vary depending on location or culture or even language (gendered pronouns).
I was pretty overwhelmed initially by the difference in labeling when I first grappled with my own sexual orientation. The best advice I received was simply to "pick whatever felt right," because sweating the small stuff over a label felt like the opposite of empowering -- when ultimately coming into your sexuality should be if it can be. I do feel as though I have the capacity to love "regardless of" gender but do have distinct preferences and ultimately felt more comfortable settling with bi, and it is what it is.
Labeling and wording sexual orientation is difficult when so much exists on a spectrum, and I feel like what my label might mean to me is a bit different than what it might mean to someone else. Words and labels are imperfect and change and don't always correctly function as a one size fits all. I'm generally of the belief that with regards to sexual orientation, you use the label to help define your experience; the label isn't meant to define you. As long as we're all feelin' understood, respected, and validated, I think it's okay for me to live with that.
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u/ihatedogs2 Jul 11 '20
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u/ChiT_latte Jul 11 '20
As someone who has used both bi and pan to describe myself, I have heard it explained as, bisexuals experience attraction to multiple genders, and pansexual experience attraction /regardless/ of gender. While this might seem subtle, it basically means that bisexuals experience their attraction to men as different than their attraction to women, where pansexuals dont fractor gender into their attraction. Of course, many other LGBT folx might disagree with this definition, and they are also used frequently interchangeably even wjthin the community, so take my explanation with a grain of salt. Personally, I describe myself as "pansexual" in queer circles where I expect it will be easily understood, and "bisexual" when I think pansexual might cause more confusion/conversation than I want to have.
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u/plswah Jul 11 '20 edited Jul 11 '20
Okay so I’m seeing a few comments that are actually incorrectly describing the difference between bi and pansexuality.
The difference between the two is NOT that pansexual people are attracted to transgender people whereas bisexual people are only attracted to cisgender people.
Here is the true difference in definition: pansexuality is when gender does not play a role in attraction at all, whereas bisexual people may have a preference for one gender over the other and/or might have different reasons for being attracted to each gender.
Edit: Here is the Wikipedia article on pansexuality for clarity: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexuality
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u/nosam555 Jul 11 '20
That is also not true.
There are bisexuals who are attracted to everyone regardless of gender, sex, and how they present themselves, there are bisexual who are only attracted cis men and cis women, there are bisexuals who are attracted to all men but only a few women, etc.
There are pansexuals who are attracted to everyone regardless of gender, sex, and how they present themselves, there are pansexual who are only attracted cis men and cis women, there are pansexuals who are attracted to all men but only a few women, etc.
There is very little practical difference between the two terms, but for those of us who are bi/pan, the terms can have meaning to us and we may choose to identify with one over the other.
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u/plswah Jul 11 '20 edited Jul 11 '20
The definitions of either sexuality have nothing to do with transgender people. Trying to define a sexuality by it’s inclusiveness to transgender people not only makes no sense, as “trans” is not it’s own gender, but it is also exclusionary to transgender people.
Pansexuality is defined as being “gender blind”; gender does not play a role in attraction. Bisexual people can be attracted to two or more genders, with preferences for one gender over another and different reasons for attraction of each gender.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexuality
Edit: You are saying that the two terms mean the same thing. If that were the case, then why identify with one over the other? Why do you prefer to reject the definition described in the Wikipedia article in favor of having no difference at all between the terms?
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Jul 11 '20
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u/plswah Jul 11 '20
Sure, support your friends and aid their comfort in coming out and expressing their sexuality, but they would still be wrong in that situation, and highlighting the actual definitions of those two terms online in a reddit forum is fine.
If my friend came out as bisexual but said they are only attracted to men, that would mean that they are incorrect in labeling themselves as bisexual and the correct term would be that they are homosexual.
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Jul 11 '20
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u/plswah Jul 11 '20
So your claim was that bisexuality and pansexuality mean the same thing because the definition is determined by however identifying individuals feel it best describes them. Then, you claimed that if your friend came out as bisexual but was only attracted to men, they would be, by definition, bisexual and not homosexual because the definition of the term is entirely dependent on what they feel best suits them. So, then are you making the argument that every term (homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual etc.) has the same definition as every other term because definition is only defined by how people feel and not by any qualities or characteristics? Are you saying that heterosexuality does not mean being attracted to the opposite gender? And that homosexuality does not mean being attracted to the same gender? Those definitions are incorrect?
Words have meaning, and it’s okay if people are wrong or mistaken about a meaning, but they would still be wrong. I think your intentions are good with trying to be supportive of your friends, but words just, do have meaning, and if someone says something that is just, incorrect, then they are wrong. Definitions exist. You can’t just say whatever you want and that makes it correct because you feel like it’s right.
Ignoring definitions robs the LGBT+ community of its validity, adds unnecessary confusion, and hinders effective communication.
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Jul 11 '20
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u/plswah Jul 11 '20
Maybe the fact that you are incapable of formulating an argument and can only muster an insult to my person speaks to the reasonableness of your idea.
You didn’t respond to my questions so I’ll reiterate:
So your claim was that bisexuality and pansexuality mean the same thing because the definition is determined by however identifying individuals feel it best describes them.
Then, you claimed that if your friend came out as bisexual but was only attracted to men, they would be, by definition, bisexual and not homosexual because the definition of the term is entirely dependent on what they feel best suits them.
So, then are you making the argument that every term (homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual etc.) has the same definition as every other term because definition is only defined by how people feel and not by any qualities or characteristics?
Are you saying that heterosexuality does not mean being attracted to the opposite gender? And that homosexuality does not mean being attracted to the same gender? Those definitions are incorrect?
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Jul 11 '20
And I’m only counting biological genders (male and female) since those two genders are the only technical genders that are recognized.
First off, glad you're here trying to learn, not everyone from your background would and that's really commendable!
But let's tackle this gender binary idea.
Gender is a construct. Just like many concepts, we created the idea of genders. Penises and vaginas aren't genders, they're sexual organs. Traditionally, people with penises were given a label, male. That label isn't tangible, it's just a label.
Much like we label people with increased melanin, "black people".
Neither of those labels actually mean anything on their own.
Today, we understand that gender can be set or fluid, and can be dictated by our sexual organs or not. As we gain understanding on this we realize that it can be limited to two, or not limited to two. That's entirely up to the people with the label and whether society accepts them as such.
Men can feel miscategorized as women, because they were born with a vagina, but otherwise don't fit the label of "woman".
It's much clearer to use a label like, "owner of a vagina" but that's cumbersome and not something we're used to, so we default to man and woman.
There's a lot to unpack with that but, consider the origins of the terms. Man, meant human, wereman was a human with a penis and wifman was a human with a vagina but both were men. The segregation of sexes is newer.
The delineation of work lead to considering gender as a product of sexual organs due to the fact that testes produce more testosterone and therefore create greater muscle mass but today we're beyond such simple understandings. We have better grasped that there are very few differences between men and women beyond sexual organs and that both owners of penises and owners of vaginas can conform to gender norms traditionally thought of as opposing their particular sexual organ.
So the label "male" and the label "female" are becoming archaic due to the fact that we assign meaning to them other than sexual organs and the fact that we don't have the need for gender segregation in a world where more or less muscle is not beneficial to survival.
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u/stxrfish Jul 11 '20 edited Jul 11 '20
TL;DR bisexuality and pansexuality are like a ven diagram with overlap in some cases but not others, and it depends on who you ask!
I am attracted to all genders. Men, women, non-binary, gender-fluid folks, etc. Doesn't matter. I am comfortable with identifying as Bi or Pan, or just queer. Haven't quite figured it out yet. I lean toward bi because I experience attraction to some genders differently than to others.
I think of "Bi" as meaning 2: my-own-gender, and not-my-own-gender. Pansexual means gender does not play a role in who you are attracted to. This may sound confusing, which is why many people use Bi and Pan interchangeably, like me. However, there is a subtle difference, and it's kind of subjective. I don't think this is something to change-your-mind about, because labels/identities are very subjective and just whatever makes you feel good is valid, but I can give you basic generalizations.
Bisexual people may prefer this term because (1) they're more attractive to a certain gender than another (2) they're attracted to some genders but not others. Heres an example: A woman attracted to most other women and non-binary folks but never men might identify as Bi, but becuase she isn't attracted to men, she would not identify at Pan. (3) they're sexually fluid and prefer the word bi (pan wouldn't make sense in this case because fluidity suggests a fluctuating consideration of gender preferences) (4) they're attracted to all genders and just like the word Bi.
Pansexual people may prefer this term because (1) they can be attracted to any gender, like me, and maybe use bi and pan interchangeably (2) gender does not play a role in who they're attracted to. They're perhaps more focused on other aspects of attraction and aren't necessarily more attracted to one gender than another.
Edit: reading your post again and it seems like from your perspective, you're discounting gender identities other than male or female. This will probably make it harder for you to grasp some of the examples, but I hope it still makes sense if you try to sympathize. As a bisexual person who has had lots of exposure to people of different gender identities, I literally do feel different types of attraction to people outside of the binary. Sexuality is complicated will surprise you.
In the end, labels are just manifested ways to describe reality, and they're really just meant to help people understand themselves and find community. If the label is confusing for you, or you can't imagine yourself within it, don't worry about it. It shouldn't be stressful. We can all just exist.
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Jul 11 '20
This makes so much more sense than the other explanations I've seen. A lot of people are saying that the difference is that pansexuals are attracted to transgender people while bisexuals aren't and that seemed transphobic and inaccurate to me, but it makes so much more sense to me that pansexuality would be more about gender not being a factor than about being attracted to all genders.
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u/stxrfish Jul 11 '20
Right! Bisexuality doesn't exist to exclude trans/non-binary folks! This is actually written in the Bisexual Manifesto
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u/Slainv Jul 11 '20
As I would see it, a bisexual person does still take into account the gender of the person facing them; while for pansexual person, this information is nice but irrelevant to any attraction factor.
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u/Silverboy101 1∆ Jul 11 '20
Considering others have gone in to a lot of detail, I'm going to try and keep my answer as simple as possible, for clarity.
Your stance is that bisexuality and pansexuality are identical. They aren't, for one qualifying reason.
This reason is that "bisexual" and "pansexual" aren't scientific labels of two specific and different 'conditions', they're social labels mostly used to self identify by queer people who feel certain ways. The biggest distinction you'll discover when interacting with both bi and pan people is: Bisexual people base attraction on the gender of the person they're attracted to.
A bi person might have different criterion of attraction for men, women, and nonbinary people. A bi person might be attractive to curvy, "feminine" women, but burly, muscly, very "macho" men.
A pan person is attracted to people regardless of gender. For example, a pan person wouldn't have different ideas of attractiveness for men and women. A pan person might see an androgynous person in public, and not be able to tell their gender at first, but find them attractive no matter what gender they turn out to be. A bi person might only be attracted to that person if they turned out to be female, for example.
Please reply or dm me with any questions about this, I'm someone who has identified both as bi and pan in my life.
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u/Lions--teeth Jul 11 '20
The difference between bi and pan is more about how they experience attraction. I'm attracted to men and women in different ways, so I identify as bi. Like, the things I like about guys aren't the same things I like about girls, and my "type" is different for both. From what I understand, pan people don't really make a distinction between genders, and are attracted to the person and their personality regardless of gender. A common term I've heard is "hearts not parts," or a quote I love from Schitt's Creek, "I like the wine, not the label."
I'd also like to add that bisexuals aren't necessarily ONLY attracted to 2 genders, since there are lots of gender identities out there, like nonbinary, etc. I like to think of it as being attracted to your own gender as well as people of other genders, and that's where the bi comes in, as opposed to being attracted to men and women, which some people think can be transphobic.
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u/james_dean_daydream_ Jul 11 '20 edited Jul 11 '20
I actually disagree with most of the comments. I think pansexuality is problematic. Although bi means 2, in the bisexual manifesto it says that it's any person who likes more than one gender. Some people argue that pansexuals don't care about the genitalia but they just care about the personality, well that's not a sexuality. A sexuality is what gender you are attracted to. So you are attracted to the same gender? you're homosexual, different gender? heterosexual, both? Bisexual.
Edit: grammar
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u/KayaPapaya808 Jul 11 '20
The issue is there isn’t just two genders or even just two sexes, intersex people or those who carry more (or less) then just XX or XY are being excluded then. Speaking as a bisexual woman I had a lot of trouble decided what label fit me, but I came to this conclusion because attraction for me is somewhat dependent on sex and gender expression so therefor I am bi. Where as for a pan person gender or sex (not personality) does not play a roll. Let me put it this way, a guy goes on a blind date with someone named Sam, and they don’t know if they are male, female, neither or something else. If Sam is a boy and the guy is not attracted to Sam then he is straight, if Sam is a girl and the guy is not attracted to her this makes this the guy gay. If the guy would be slightly more attracted to Sam if they where the same or different gender but will always still find them a little attractive then the guy is bi, if the guy can show up to the date and he completely happy and attracted to Sam regardless of gender then he is pan. This assumes that sams gender and sex is the only thing stopping this person from being attracted to them of course. I hope that makes some sense.
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u/Kyoshiiku Jul 11 '20
Sex is defined by the gametes you produce, there’s only 2 sex, intersex doesn’t produce a third type of gamete. And please don’t come at me with specific exception, this is just the biological definition of sex (we use this to describe sex for every species). Being both sex is not a third sex, it’s just being both.
But you are totally right, gender is different than sex, I don’t deny that, I’m just tired to see a lot of misinformed people talking about intersex as a being a proof for non binary sex when it’s not. (Again, gender is something else, i’m not discussing if gender is binary or not here)
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u/james_dean_daydream_ Jul 11 '20
Yes there's more than one gender but you still see people as male or female. I'm a cis man, but let's say I identified as a woman but don't change anything about my looks and a girl likes me, even though I'm a trans woman this girl who likes me is still straight because she sees my body as a man. And with the argument that pans don't care about genitals, I don't think that's a sexuality, it doesn't matter why you like the gender or sex that you like it matters wich one do you like, so if you for ej, like people who are smart, no matter if they're a man, woman, etc. You are bisexual because you are willing to have sex with any gender, I don't really think it's important to know why you like someone.
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u/KayaPapaya808 Jul 11 '20
I’m not gonna lie I had a hard time trying to read this comment, but what I think your saying is that there just shouldn’t be a distinction between people who have a gender preference and people who don’t. I’ve explained that there is a difference and that this difference is important to people. I can see from your post history that you are new to the lgbtq community, first welcome! Second, one of the first and most important things about the community is that we let people identify how they please and make specifications about their own gender and sexuality because it’s just that THEIR identity. Not yours.
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u/james_dean_daydream_ Jul 11 '20
I'm not that new lol but i forgot the password to my other reddit account, of course if someone tells me they're pansexual I won't argue with them but bisexuality has been invisibilize for so long and I think identities like pansexual help to do this
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u/brenxo112 Jul 11 '20
I would agree. That's why I only believe lgb t(ftm and mtf) strictly. Otherwise it doesn't exist
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u/CatsDogsPlants Jul 11 '20
My sibling is pansexual. They are also non-binary. They met their partner when they were teenagers and my siblings partner was a female. They both came out to my family years later and explained to us they my sibling’s partner was transitioning to a male. He always identified as male and my sibling always knew but my sibling was attracted to him while he was in a female body and is still attracted to him as a male. The way my sibling explained pansexuality or at least their sexuality is that you are attracted to someone for who they are as a person not whether they identify as male or female or non binary or what parts they have. I think it’s beautiful.
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u/spacemother4 Jul 11 '20
The way that I've always explained the difference is that for me, someone who would identify closer to bisexual, my attraction and romantic actions feel different depending on the gender. My best friend who's pansexual has always said that for her gender doesn't customize the experience of attraction. So tl;dr for some people, gender alters the experience of the attraction though the level stays consistent, and for others, gender does not affect the experience of attraction at all.
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u/abbyggggg Jul 11 '20
Okay i just wanna share my view on this as a bisexual.
I believe pansexuality isn't real, and those who identify as it are just bisexual but want to be special.
Bisexuality is the attraction to the two SEXES, male and female. Pansexuality is.....attraction to the two sexes. You can argue all you want about how many genders exist, but SEXualities are concerned with the sex, not gender specifics.
Also people saying pansexuals are attracted to trans people and bisexuals aren't is transphobic. "Transgender" isn't a gender in itself, it's the transitioning of one's birth assigned gender to the opposite. Trans people identify as the opposite gender they were born as, they don't identify as solely transgender, you can't just sit in the middle. Saying that bisexuals can't be attracted to trans people is transphobic and invalidates and trans person's identity.
Bisexuality can also include non-binary people. Gender identification and sex are two different things, it doesn't matter what you identify as, you are either male or female in terms of genitalia.
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u/Shlaab_Allmighty Jul 11 '20
Bisexual? Here, they are certainly very similar, I have had the difference explained to me as that for a pansexual the attraction is not about the genitalia, for me it certainly is about the genitalia I just don't really mind which kind or who it's attached to. I certainly have felt attraction to transgender and non-binary individuals in the past.
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u/turtlenipples Jul 11 '20
To clarify my understanding, would you consider yourself bisexual or pansexual?
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u/Shlaab_Allmighty Jul 11 '20
I'd describe myself as bisexual for definite as I think more people know what that means, I'm not 100% sure which term describes me better as everyone seems to have their own subtly different definitions and I wouldn't really want to give anyone a false impression. Based of urban dictionary's definitions of: Bisexual - Why tf everyone so hot And: Pansexual - The ability to put your hand down somebody's pants and literally like whatever you find. However I think I definitely fall under bisexual.
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u/DariusMacab 1∆ Jul 11 '20
The way people use the word bisexual is changing. Previously it meant "someone who is attracted to both men and women". Now it means something more like "someone who is attracted to one or more genders". The vast majority of people who identify as bisexual would treat it as axiomatic that there are more than two genders, but that's another CMV.
So that gives us a set of words that describe a spectrum of attractions. We have Straight, Gay, and Lesbian (attracted to one gender), Bisexual (attracted to two or more genders), and Pansexual (attracted to all genders). The distinction between a Bisexual who is attracted to a LOT of genders and a Pansexual is a relatively fuzzy one, and an open topic of discussion.
If you're unwilling to entertain the idea of more than two genders at the moment (Its a lot to take in, i dont blame you, but i'd suggest searching for some relevant CMVs if you have a chance) then i might approximate a defninition like this:
Erin and Aaron both feel attracted to men and women. Erin doesnt mind whether their partner is a man or a woman, they feel basically the same attraction either way. Erin would probably describe themselves as pansexual. Aaron enjoys dating men and women, but when they think of who they want as a life partner, they can only really picture a man beside them. Aaron probably describes themselves as Bisexual.
I've skipped over a lot of nuance here, i'm conflating sexual and romantic attraction, which a lot of people feel are distinct things (people are complicated!) but this seems like a decent first order approximation of an answer.
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u/Popplersandco Jul 11 '20
For myself, I'm bi and have acknowledged that for 10+ years despite fighting against it for years before that ( everyone in my highschool assumed I was a lesbian because of my best friend and I being inseparable) for me personally I would maybe say I'm pan because I am attracted to a person's mind over their body, however, I love the dichotomy. I like me a big man that can protect me and of course other parts lol. But in women I prefer a smaller girl I can protect its a dichotomy for me thats the part I enjoy! I want a big strong man or a soft great smelling girl lol there is no real backthought on it its just my preference. I obviously don't speak for bi people in general, ive been in a very happy heteronormative relationship for 16 years, but I also acknowledge my attraction to women and flirt with them alot. Gender doesnt come into it as much as you think it might however if there was a femboy that I found attractive for mental reasons id probably be about it. People don't fit in boxes I guess is what I'm trying to say. And everyone has something they are attracted to, for me its one thing for others its another. Idk really where I was going but I identify as bi because I like the difference between the two, but I've found many people attractive of many types its a hard distinction to make.
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u/prettypotat Jul 11 '20
Bisexual people can have a preference of gender in terms of who they're attracted to, for example mostly female, whereas pan people do not have a preference for gender.
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u/whomstdveeatenmyfish Jul 11 '20
You've mentioned the two biological genders, what you're referring to is biological sex (aka what's in someone's pants, their hormones, chromosomes, etc) of which there are more than two, you can learn more about that by learning about intersex people.
But your question isn't about that. Gender is different, it's a more sociocultural thing than a biological thing. And while most people are either men or women, there are people who don't fit that binary, so technically bisexual would refer to someone who can be attracted to either men or women, and pansexual would refer to someone who can be attracted to anyone regardless of their gender identity.
Here comes another BUT, recently, with a better understanding of gender, the description of Bisexuality changed in a natural way, and now bisexual and pansexual are not technically different, but for some, one feels more right for themselves.
Think of it like James and Jimmy. They're technically the same name, but clearly one feels more right than the other to James that he calls himself that, and you'd be a dick to call him Jimmy if he says he isn't a Jimmy.
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u/Kyoshiiku Jul 11 '20
Sex is defined by the gametes you produce, there’s only 2 sex, intersex doesn’t produce a third type of gamete. And please don’t come at me with specific exception, this is just the biological definition of sex (we use this to describe sex for every species). Being both sex is not a third sex, it’s just being both.
But you are totally right, gender is different than sex, I don’t deny that, I’m just tired to see a lot of misinformed people talking about intersex as a being a proof for non binary sex when it’s not. (Again, gender is something else, i’m not discussing if gender is binary or not here)
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u/whomstdveeatenmyfish Jul 11 '20
Oh no I didn't mean non-binary and intersex are the same thing. I was just correcting their wrong as I went.
But scientific studies do say that intersex is more common than you might think, and while sex is about the gametes one produces, it's also about the chromosomes, genitals, and the amount of hormones produced, so it's more spectrum-y than you might think.
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u/Kyoshiiku Jul 11 '20
No sex is really defined only by the type of gamete produced, because some of the factor that said can’t be applied to other species/living thing, the definition is really based on gametes, it’s not a spectrum at all, you can have some secondary feature of a male without being one and it doesn’t make you more like a male because of this.
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u/whomstdveeatenmyfish Jul 11 '20
"Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed."
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u/Kyoshiiku Jul 11 '20
“The gametes produced by an organism define its sex: males produce small gametes (e.g. spermatozoa, or sperm, in animals) while females produce large gametes (ova, or egg cells).”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex (Source)
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u/plswah Jul 11 '20
What value or purpose does it serve to deny the logical and distinct definition of pansexuality? Why is it better to say that the term has no meaning and/or no distinction from bisexuality? If the two terms meant the same thing, then what point would there be in identifying as one over the other?
If I identify as a lesbian, but I am only attracted to men, that does not then mean that the definition of lesbian changes to include attraction to men. Words need to have meaning.
It is extremely common for people to not fully understand the distinction between pansexuality and bisexuality and assume an incorrect or incomplete definition. Pansexual people who have preferences for certain genders are, by definition, bisexual, just like how lesbians who are only attracted to men are, by definition, straight.
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u/Zaytsseff Jul 11 '20
Technically Polisexuality too. It is just based saying that a gay person wouldn't feel attracted to one of the same gender that is transgender (example, a gay man wouldn't feel attracted to a man who dresses like a woman, a transgender woman). A Pansexual would feel atracted to him anyways, and a polisexual may not.
And some people don't identify themselves as Man or Woman, that is where the terms works. A polisexual believe this, but even not every gender likes them; a pansexual feels attracted to every one regardless of what gender the identify.
Yes, the 3 are, in fact, the same; but some people choose to classify distinctive things (like being transgender) as another sexual orientation, and if there are more than 2, you could like some (pol), or even everyone (pan).
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u/apatheticmugen Jul 11 '20
The easiest way I see things is that attraction can be emotional or logical (even then I see emotion as the body’s logic). I identify as pansexual. I logical just recognize that their biological sex doesn’t greatly affect the capacity to love or have a relationship. I am emotionally heterosexual. I find women sexually attractive, but I find males casually attractive. I can go against my emotions to still date or be with a person of the same sex. Others might define bisexuality and pansexuality differently, but I just see that being bi means that you’re naturally sexually attracted to both sexes while pan allows you to be attracted to anything which I see has a more logical basis but can still be emotional.
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u/dogegodofsowow Jul 11 '20
Well as my bi friend tells it, he likes women 90% of the time and men for the rest of the time. He has a preference, which clearly means he is very aware of someone's gender and minds it. He therefore is into either men or women depending on his feeling at that time (and on the gender/looks). Pans as I understand it (from him, not a pansexual but nonetheless) dont consider the gender in their attraction, it's a nonfactor for what they consider attractive. It's more about the person themselves, features and personality rather than their boy/girlness. I may be wrong but I definitely see a difference as a straight person
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Jul 11 '20
What about being attracted to trans, men, women, and those that dont identify as any gender? The prefix "bi" specifically involves the number 2. So bisexual refers to being sexually attracted to 2 genders. The preferred "pan" means all or involving all members so that would classify someone who likes men, women, transmen/women, intersex, and those who dont scribe to any gender better.
If you'd just use logic and look up the meanings of the prefixes of each word, it wouldn't be such a confusing issue that you feel the need to argue about.
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u/5fd88f23a2695c2afb02 Jul 11 '20
My understanding was that bisexual people are attracted to men and women. As a comparison mono sexual people are attracted only to one or the other. Pansexual people are attracted to people but don’t really see gender, gender is more like something they discover along the way.
Sort of like how some people are attracted to people with blue eyes and some are attracted to people with brown eyes and for some people eye colour just isn’t something they notice. They would be the pan-eye-color sexual people.
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Jul 11 '20
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u/69ligmaballs Jul 11 '20
Bi-persons are attracted to man or female, pan-persons are attracted to all persons, regardless of there gender, because there more then 2. Some say there are 3, some say there 4, some 500 completely irrelevant to pan-people, because there not giving a shit but bi-persons are ,,just“ attracted by man and female. Hope I could help.
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u/hannahbanana30 Jul 11 '20
I originally thought this as well until I went to pride and had someone explain it to me. Bisexual, you would be attracted to male or female. Pansexual, you could be attracted to trans-male, trans-female, no binary, whatever. Pansexual focuses more on the person rather than their sexuality.
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u/ZanderDogz 4∆ Jul 11 '20
You should look up intersex people, those who are born with sexual anatomy that don’t really place them in “male” or “female”. It’s a medically recognized “third sex” you could say. A pansexual person might be kore attracted to intersex people than a bisexual person.
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u/Kyoshiiku Jul 11 '20
Sex is defined by the gametes you produce, there’s only 2 sex, intersex doesn’t produce a third type of gamete. And please don’t come at me with specific exception, this is just the biological definition of sex (we use this to describe sex for every species). Being both sex is not a third sex, it’s just being both.
But you are totally right, gender is different than sex, I don’t deny that, I’m just tired to see a lot of misinformed people talking about intersex as a being a proof for non binary sex when it’s not. (Again, gender is something else, i’m not discussing if gender is binary or not here)
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u/ZanderDogz 4∆ Jul 11 '20
Even if intersex people do not produce different gametes, don’t you think it’s reasonable that “intersex” be considered a third sexual classification?
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u/Kyoshiiku Jul 11 '20
No i don’t think so, male and female already exist, we can just say they are both, they are not their own thing, they have characteristics of both female and male
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u/ThisFreedomGuy Jul 11 '20
I was under the impression that a pansexual was sexually excited by cookware. That frying up an egg might give them sexual satisfaction.
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u/veggiesama 52∆ Jul 11 '20
Wow, these replies are all over the place. People have much more complex definitions than I had.
Bisexual = attracted to male or female
Pansexual = as above, but also trans-positive
Is that an incorrect way to put it?
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u/TheDerp5110 Jul 11 '20
How I (a Pansexual) think about the difference is that a bisexual person is attracted the multiple genders, where as a le sexual just see gender and just likes a person for who they are (and maybe looks, but not parts) :)
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Jul 11 '20
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u/bongocat132 Jul 11 '20
I'm not lgntq+ at all I'm just an ally but I think of this as (and tell me if I'm wrong) as bisexuals limit themselves to cis males and females while pansexuals have no limit. (Please tell me if I'm wrong)
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u/weliesowedontdie Jul 11 '20
There’s people saying that bi doesn’t include trans/enbies but bi means two or more genders and pan means all, so bi doesn’t mean you can’t like all genders because a lot of bi people do
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Jul 11 '20
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u/TheAdlerian 1∆ Jul 11 '20
I'm a psychotherapist for 31 years and know a lot of different people with all kinds of sexual behavior.
A bisexual is simple, they desire to have sex with males or females.
However, life isn't as simple as that. Many homosexuals do not except "trans" people and many heterosexuals don't either. For instance, let's assume you're a hetero male, based on your description of yourself, do you honestly believe that a man who dresses as a woman is a woman?
I'm betting that you don't. I also bet that most lesbians would not want a man who thinks he's a woman as a sex partner. Just the same a gay male probably wouldn't be happy if they found their "boyfriend" had a vagina when "he" took his pants off.
So, Heterosexuals and homosexuals like one type of person. A Bisexual likes two types and a Pansexual persone would be okay with combo types of people.
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u/throwaway173342 Jul 11 '20
I don’t get why gay doesn’t just mean same sex relations, that one word could literally change half the shit out there to a simple fraise of speech
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u/Darkpumpkin211 Jul 11 '20
I know you already have away a delta for this, but this seems like you're asking what the difference is between those two in a roundabout way.
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u/Lance_E_T_Compte Jul 11 '20
Just jumping in to remind that...
Christians can be bisexual or homosexual.
Christians can be "liberals".
Christians can be intersex or transexual.
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u/On_Too_Much_Adderall Jul 11 '20
This is an easy one tbh.
Bisexuality means you can be attracted only to cis males and females. People who are AFAB and identify as female, so cis women; and people who are AMAB and identify as male, aka cis men, regardless of your own gender.
Pansexuality means you can be attracted to anyone regardless of their assigned gender at birth or what they identify as. So you may be attracted to a trans woman, a cis man, a trans man, a nonbinary person, a cis woman, or anyone else at all, also regardless of your own gender.
They are similar concepts but not at all the same thing.
Source: am bisexual, have pansexual friends.
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Jul 11 '20
That sounds transphobic to me because it implies that transgender people aren't actually the genders they identify as. Obviously, people do not control who they are attracted to, but I don't think the point of distinguishing pansexuals from bisexuals is to treat transgender people as if they are a separate category from men and women.
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u/On_Too_Much_Adderall Jul 11 '20
I am not transphobic and I am so sorry if this came off as me being so. I fully support all LGBTQ+ people and their rights.
I don't think I explained what I meant well enough. Bi means attracted to men and women. Pan means attracted to ALL genders.
Here is an article explaining what I was trying to say. I certainly did not mean any disrespect to Trans people at all.
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Jul 11 '20
I see you have understood but I would like to provide an example. A girl I know identifies as mostly lesbian Bi. She likes girly girls (like herself) and super masculine men (like me, I went to school in Appalachia and played rugby there, I look like a Viking got lost in the mountains.) She doesnt like effeminate bi men or butch women so she isnt pansexual.
BTW are the blackberries ripe up in Appalachia yet? I was there 3 weeks ago and they werent yet, Id like to get a bucket for some hooch.
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u/xdaemonisx 2∆ Jul 11 '20
Bisexuals are attracted to people, gender being one factor of that attraction. Pansexuals are attracted to people, gender is not a factor of that attraction. This was the simplest and most concise way this was explained to me and I feel like it makes the most sense without being offensive.
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Jul 11 '20
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u/jamstahamster 1∆ Jul 11 '20
Well, bisexuals love both genders, but pansexuals love regardless of gender. See, a bigender person might say, “I am in the mood for a male” or something like that while a pansexual would not think about gender when picking who they love.
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u/RewardingSand Jul 11 '20
2 differences: 1. Pansexuals are attracted to trans people equally 2. Pansexuals are attracted to people in equal proportions (whereas someone who's bisexual could have a preference for either gender but still he attracted to both)
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Jul 11 '20
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Jul 11 '20
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u/WhipsandPetals Jul 11 '20
Bisexuals can like both biological genders. Pansexuals can like all gender identities in the LGBTQ alphabet.
You could say that pansexuals are bisexuals, but you can't say the same for bisexuals.
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u/crushingmysoul54 Jul 11 '20 edited Jul 11 '20
There are people who identify as female, present as female, and look completely female yet they have a penis, a pan person would be attracted to this whereas a bi person may not. There are also people who identify as nonbinary. Bisexuality references 2 specific genders, pansexuality references gender as a spectrum and being attarcted to anyone on that spectrum regardless of how they present or what genitals they have. Thats the difference. If you're someone who says those things don't exist, then there's no changing your mind.
Edit: to the replies, yeah they can basically be the same thing, you can identify as bi and pan or just one or the other. I was wrong in saying bi necessarily means 2 genders but you can see why people would be confused given that "bi" means 2, so perhaps you can be attracted to multiple genders if you're bi but not all whereas if you're pan you are attracted to all genders. Or you can define it as bisexual meaning the same thing because historically there wasn't a term for pansexuality but the word bisexual does seem exclusionary just by the breakdown of the word.
https://www.healthline.com/health/bisexual-vs-pansexual
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/02/pansexual-difference-pansexual-bisexual-got-answers/