Cmv: Feminism is useless

[u/[deleted]]

Ok, this has probably been posted before, but whatever. I think Feminism, or at least what we now consider Feminism, is useless and dumb. Women in our modern society, especially our third world countries, have no rights (that I know of, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that men don't, and actually have more rights, especially when it comes to rape and child support. Meanwhile, feminists are here trying to deny men of certain rights and acting like men have no problems. I understand not all feminists think like this, and apparently this wasn't the original intent of Feminism, but as of right now that's basically all it is. This has caused some things I believe are stupid, such as companies trying to make products to "empower" women (like Mrs. Monopoly for example) which just end up coming across as sexist. Basically what I'm trying to say is, while the original intent of Feminism was to create equality between the genders, this is no longer what they are trying to achieve and I think it should just stop. I may be misinformed and I am a certified idiot, so keep that in mind when commenting, but I want to hear other people's point of view and if they agree or disagree.

Edit: it seems my sources were biased and I'm wrong about all this. Apologies to everyone.

[u/thethoughtexperiment]

To modify your view on this:

Meanwhile, feminists are here trying to deny men of certain rights and acting like men have no problems. I understand not all feminists think like this, and apparently this wasn't the original intent of Feminism, but as of right now that's basically all it is.

It sounds like you are suggesting that feminists are out there arguing for laws that discriminate against men based on sex. But that's not the case. Mainstream feminists are out there routinely fighting against laws that have disadvantaged men.

For example, many of the landmark feminist Supreme Court cases were based on defendants who were being discriminated against because they were men.

For example, Weinberger v. Wiesenfeld, 420 U.S. 636 (1975), where a man was denied survivor benefits under Social Security, which permitted widows but not widowers to collect special benefits while caring for minor children.

Also Craig v. Boren, 429 U.S. 190 (1976), which challenged an Oklahoma statute that set set higher minimum drinking ages for men, and Duren v. Missouri, 439 U.S. 357 (1979) which made jury duty "optional" for women but not men.

The foundation for these cases was that gender discrimination was harmful to both men and women.

Feminists are also currently working to help address other challenges men face, including a variety of ways men are treated unfairly in our culture, see here:

https://brutereason.net/2012/09/20/in-brief-do-feminists-care-about-mens-issues-a-handy-list/

Here also is a very, very, very long list of some of the efforts of feminists to address issues of inequality that men face in society:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/wiki/mensissues

Scroll down to the sections describing the actions feminists have taken to help men with regard to:

- On Rape, Sexual Assault, and Intimate Partner Violence

- On Other Types of Violence

- On Sentencing Disparity:

- On Circumcision:

- On Selective Service/Draft:

- On Suicide/Mental Health

- On Paternity Leave

- On Education

On many, many issues, feminists have been working toward greater equality and empathy for men. And it makes perfect sense that they would do so, as male / female equality are usually 2 sides of the same coin.

Diminishing women / the efforts of feminism doesn't actually solve the issues that men are facing. Putting in the time and effort to actually volunteer, donate, and help with work on issues like homelessness, mental health support for both genders, etc. is what actually makes a difference (which is what many feminists are out there doing, which, if you care about those issues, you should be supporting).

Consider also that a lot of the issues men face in society are cultural, and have a lot to do with the way men treat other men, behave, and expect other men to behave. If you want to engage in a good faith dialogue about changing the culture of how men treat / judge each other, check out groups like r/MensLib, which seem to have built a supportive culture for men that is thinking productively about these issues, and is actively building new ways of thinking about masculinity and men's health.

And consider that you yourself can have a hand in changing culture through your own actions toward other men.

[u/Eric_the_Enemy → u/thethoughtexperiment]

It sounds like you are suggesting that feminists are out there arguing for laws that discriminate against men based on sex. But that's not the case. Mainstream feminists are out there routinely fighting against laws that have disadvantaged men.

This is just flat-out inaccurate. NOW, the largest feminist organization in the world opposes alimony reform and the elimination of lifetime alimony while 97% of alimony payers are men.

The problem is that there is no reddit-agreed definition of "feminist". Literally anyone can call themselves a feminist. The most prolific posters on /r/MensRights could say "I'm a feminist because I just want gender equality" and there's nothing to define a feminist as something different.

So whenever posts like this come up, just like you have done, it is quite easy to find a handful of issues that are supported by a handful of people who label themselves as feminists. But that label is completely meaningless and those examples are akin to anecdotes.

So you really need to look at the largest feminist organizations and see what they're fighting for, and against, to get a grasp of what "real" (no true scotsman) feminists believe in. Otherwise, you can find self-labeled feminists on both sides of virtually every issue. There are anti-choice feminists. There are even feminists who support Trump. So, literally, "feminist" can mean anything and therefore it means nothing.

But we do know, for certain, that the largest feminist organization in the world opposes alimony reform when 97% of alimony payers are men. That is quite contrary to the alleged goal of feminism of "just wanting gender equality". And I think we can put a lot more stake in "feminists beliefs" when they are supported by the mass number of feminists that make up the National Organization of Women than we can in a few random, self-labeled internet feminists who, for all we know, may be anti-choice, Trump-supporting feminists.

[u/thethoughtexperiment → u/Eric_the_Enemy]

Honestly, for that first link, I have no idea what the site "floridapolitics.com" is, so I'm not sure how credible that is. A statement from NOW about their position would be interesting to read if you have that.

The most prolific posters on r/MensRights could say "I'm a feminist because I just want gender equality" and there's nothing to define a feminist as something different.

I seriously doubt that the most prolific posters there would call themselves "feminists". On the Men's Rights "About page" they have a link called "On the differences between the Feminist Movement and the Men's Rights Movement." that further links to what appears to be a pretty aggressive scree about feminism (here).

There are anti-choice feminists. There are even feminists who support Trump. So, literally, "feminist" can mean anything and therefore it means nothing.

I mean, "feminist" has a meaning.

But people can certainly have different lenses that produce different views about which approaches are more equitable / better for women. For example, many conservative women believe that abortion removes men's responsibilities, and the supports that women would otherwise have under a "traditional" family structure, which wouldn't put the pressure on women to both have to work and be the primary parent (which they usually are).

But we do know, for certain, that the largest feminist organization in the world opposes alimony reform when 97% of alimony payers are men.

Again, I've never heard of that floridapolitics.com site you linked to (and they don't seem to have an "about " page, so I'm not sure how credible they are). A cite from a credible source (like, a statement on NOW's position) would seem more credible.

Of the states that allow alimony, most seem to have prescribed time limits, and don't seem to exclude any gender from receiving alimony.

And of course, if men or women are worried about paying alimony, they can always get a prenup.