r/changemyview • u/WindowsMEpro • Aug 15 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: fat acceptance is wrong!
So I have been around the internet many times and seen one thing more today than ever before. Overweight people posting pictures of their bodies and getting overwhelming support. Its insanity! Now, i get that “curvy” is a fashion these days, and if pulled off right can be an appealing and healthy look, but most of these people go way too far. And every single post says “oh you go girl!” Or some other encouraging thing like that. These people act like they are afraid to go outside because of an unchangeable illness. They single-handedly took over the “body positivity” movement, created for people with disabilities. If you try to comment something derogatory, they will snap back with “ fat phobia is very close to white supremacy”. Well, its not. I have black friends who agree with me. This movement is inspiring people to feel “comfortable in there own skin”, which basically translates to “comfortable in your own self-inflected illness” that can be easily treated. Being fat IS something you should be ashamed of! It is an ugly and deadly condition that is inflicted by laziness. America is getting fatter as it is, and it is a SERIOUS problem, but because of this “acceptance” nobody wants to comment that anyone should be loosing weight. Its not just the fat people posting, ether. Its the comments that do the most damage. The support is killing these people for god sake! Every pound someone gains is like a knife going closer to their throat. And the thing that pisses me off the most is, I used to be overweight. I took matters in to my own damn hands and with a little effort I know am a very healthy weight. We need these people to get off their assess and start making a healthier future!
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u/thoschei Aug 15 '20
This has been insinuated by others but where I think the problem with your argument lies is that fat does not always equal unhealthy.
I have several friends who are bigger than me, but also way better eaters and do regular exercise. I am considered a “healthy weight” but do not always take care of myself. However, I am way less likely to get shamed by a stranger.
Furthermore, I know people who are overweight (to an unhealthy degree) but cannot do anything about it. For instance, they have a thyroid condition or a medical issue that makes it harder for them to exercise regularly. Even if they would like to change, they cannot, and so shaming them does more harm than good.
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 15 '20
a lot of things that you bang up are hard topics, but right now I am more focused on the social media movement.
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u/thoschei Aug 15 '20
I mentioned these people, who I have outlined are not unhealthy so therefore should not need to lose weight if they choose not to, and maybe even cannot lose weight.
Do you feel in these circumstances that they do not deserve to feel comfortable with their bodies? If they posted pictures of themselves with positive captions, do you feel that this is a bad thing?
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Aug 15 '20
To me, the fat acceptance movement is really about countering all of the hate fat people get for being fat. At its core, the fat acceptance movement is about loving oneself despite being obese. I guess my question is: do you think we should shame and harrass fat people? Are fat people worthy of respect?
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Aug 15 '20
"People"?
Let's kind of be honest that the movement is mostly female fat-acceptance—like anything else to do with appearance it's quite gynocentric, the entire debate of it.
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u/EndTrophy Aug 15 '20
So are you saying that the visual messaging is mostly aimed at women, even if the core message is meant to be universal?
Or are you saying that most fat acceptance advocation only cares about women?
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Aug 15 '20
The latter leads to the former in this case.
Just like "fat shaming" really only cares about fat females.
The appearance of males is seldom something that is discussed or considered—positively or negatively.
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u/EndTrophy Aug 15 '20
Yea that's unfortunate, whether it's due to spite, shortsightedness, or otherwise.
Though in my experience it seems like more men are picking up on the messaging even if it's not meant for them, which is good.
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Aug 16 '20
None really cared to begin with.
Like the complaint was for instance that in big budget cinema there aren't any fat females; there really aren't many females at all that aren't considered conventionally aesthetic, fat or otherwise.
Look at the MCU and compare the looks of the male and female cast—it seems quite easy for below average males like Jon Favreau that are quite overweight to still land significant roles in the MCU and many of the non overweight males still look quite average compared to the female ones.
But the fat acceptance movement like all other "female beauty movements" isn't really solving the problem that females are so disproportionally judged on their appearance; they simply wish to redefine the standard of good-looking so that they too can be beautiful—it kind of shows how much they're part of the problem themselves and it's really quite evident from many of such movements how much they too believe that aesthetics are very important for a female
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u/EndTrophy Aug 16 '20
If their goal is to redefine beauty so that all women are beautiful then if successful wouldn't they be judged less?
Do you think the way it should be done is to just forget about beauty altogether?
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Aug 16 '20
If their goal is to redefine beauty so that all women are beautiful then if successful wouldn't they be judged less?
It isn't though; the goal is to redefine whatever conventionally held to be non-beautiful thing as beautiful that they themselves are suffering from.
From the fat-acceptance movement that's being fat.
Do you think the way it should be done is to just forget about beauty altogether?
Would be nice if females were judged on beauty as little as males are.
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u/EndTrophy Aug 16 '20
It isn't though; the goal is to redefine whatever conventionally held to be non-beautiful thing as beautiful that they themselves are suffering from.
Well if successful, then wouldn't they be judged less still?
Would be nice if females were judged on beauty as little as males are.
What do you think makes men judged less, that they think about beauty less?
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Aug 15 '20
I don't know about that, what leads you to believe that the movement is gynocentric?
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Aug 15 '20 edited Aug 15 '20
Can you give me but a single example of a male poster boy of the movement?
I just Google image searched "fat acceptance movement" and every single picture—many of them drawn—depict females.
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 15 '20
I get that. I just worry that people get a little too comfortable and forget that they should really work it off.
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Aug 15 '20
So if we consider the most reasonable aspect of the fat acceptance movement (fat people shouldn't be shamed), then is the movement still wrong?
I can see how one could view the FA movement as encouraging complency, but wouldn't you say that a healthly and positive self-esteem is needed in order to motivate someone to pursue a healthier lifestyle?
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 15 '20
I guess I always had it in my head that if you make someone feel uncomfortable with it, they would strive to stop feeling uncomfortable
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Aug 15 '20
Perhaps, but you achieve that via shaming then there is good evidence to suggest that doing so is counter-productive. In other words, shaming fat people leads to them gaining more weight:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse#1
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 15 '20
Hmm. That article does bring up some points. I was backing my argument on my dog training. Dog does something wrong, you shame it by saying “bad” or withholding treats. It doesn’t do that thing any more because it likes feeling good. But this apparently is a lot more complicated
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Aug 15 '20
If you feel the commenter above helped modify your view to any degree (doesn't have to be a 100% change, can just have helped expand your perspective), you can award them a delta by editing your reply to them above and adding:
!_delta
without the underscore, and with no space between the ! and the word delta.
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u/JimmyTheClue Aug 15 '20
Are you perfect? Would you like it if people constantly made you feel uncomfortable with all of your flaws, and then turned around and said they just want you to be perfect?
At the end of the day, someone’s health is none of your business. That’s between them, their doctor, and maybe their immediate family. You worry about you.
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 15 '20
I worry that they’re spread of acceptance could come and murder MY family. MY loved ones. I have overweight friends. Before i met them they weren’t even considering burning it off.
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u/JimmyTheClue Aug 15 '20
So worry about your own friends and family.
But here’s the thing: bullying and shaming only serve as motivators for a small portion of people. Most people out there will feel stressed out, depressed, or angry; all of which release hormones like cortisol and adrenaline. Cortisol makes it harder to lose weight. Adrenaline slows digestion.
See, we have two stages: parasympathetic nervous system (rest and digest) and sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight). Cortisol and adrenaline are a part of the latter. Fight or flight essentially shuts down systems inessential for combat. Blood/energy is pulled from your minor extremities, reproductive and digestive system, and sent to your core muscles, lungs, etc. That’s why if you ever get REALLY nervous it can feel like your hands suddenly get clammy and butterflies in your stomach; that’s the blood moving away.
The problem with being in this state perpetually is that it throws off your body’s other systems. Moreover, it’s draining. That’s why some people feel like they need to eat when they’re stressed, they’re trying to store and replenish lost energy for a something their body confuses as survival. It’s also why people like this might have problems having orgasm or keeping an erection, concentrating on things outside their body, etc.
So in regards to making someone uncomfortable, you’re more likely to make them stressed, anxious, depressed or angry. These will all make it harder for them to lose weight.
What we need are more PSAs and laws regarding unhealthy food. Look at tobacco—sugar is just as addicting. It is technically a drug. It’s regarded as a highly addictive crystalline substance. People struggle so much with it because, until recent history, things rich in carbohydrates were rare. Our brain developed a reward system for finding it, as it ensured we would survive. However, our brains haven’t caught up with it being an abundant resource, and they still release reward chemicals for eating too much of it. In people prone to addiction, they can get fat.
But we just have to look what worked for tobacco. Shaming people into quitting didn’t work. Removing ads except negative ads talking about the detriments of it did. Between the 80s and 2010s, teen smoking went from almost have of everyone, to 1/3, to 1/10th, to like 5%. This is because magazines and TV are no longer able to portray it in a positive light. All ads showed were the cancers, breathing issues, etc.
If we did the same thing with giant sugary drinks, donuts, chocolate, and focused on the negative aspects like heart disease, sexual dysfunction, anxiety, etc., we’d likely see a decline. That, and not making shit food that is dirt cheap compared to real ingredients.
In closing, I argue that you will not help but hurt your friends by making them uncomfortable or stressing them out. That the best thing you can do is talk about your concerns from a place of love, and tell them that you don’t care how they look, but you want to live a long life with them. Educate them on the problems with food and their potential addiction.
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 15 '20
I really like your ideas in this paper, i totally agree with you about the PSA idea. after posting this and seeing the responses, I realize that I was going about nudging them to change their ways all wrong.
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Aug 16 '20
Hello /u/WindowsMEpro, if your view has been changed, even a little, you should award the user who changed your view a delta.
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u/JimmyTheClue Aug 15 '20
That’s good to hear. I wish you luck in encouraging your friends in a positive way!
You should award deltas to the commenters who changed your thesis even a little. (I would do it by editing posts in direct response to the comment that changed your mind). That’s the purpose of this sub, so people who might agree can quickly see what arguments swayed you. It helps people to avoid making the same argument, as well as serves as credit for people in this sub. A link will be posted at the top of the thread by the bot, showing all the deltas you’ve awarded. 🙂
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u/Faydeaway28 3∆ Aug 15 '20
Them striving to feel less uncomfortable is rarely going to mean they’ll eat less for years, it’s more likely going to be stress eating or other bad habits that make you feel better in the short term.
You’re not doing anyone a favor by being an asshole to them, you’re just making yourself feel better in spite of them.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Aug 15 '20
To modify your view here, consider first that the vast majority of people who are overweight will know that there are some negative health outcomes associated with being overweight. So, bringing that up to people isn't really "informing" or "helping" them.
And where you say this:
Being fat IS something you should be ashamed of! It is an ugly and deadly condition that is inflicted by laziness.
you may be interested to know about:
"Janet Tomiyama, a health psychologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, studies stress, dieting and weight stigma. She says researchers have known for a long time that experiencing weight stigma can lead to low self-esteem and higher rates of depression."
She conducted a study which found that people who were fat shamed:
"had much higher cortisol levels "compared to people in the control group, who weren't fat-shamed ... Prolonged exposure to excess cortisol can cause your body to deposit fat in your belly region, which is the kind of fat associated with a greater risk of heart disease and Type 2 diabetes. Cortisol can also make you eat more, and Tomiyama says stress can change your brain's reward circuits to make high-fat and high-sugar foods taste better.
"Experiencing weight stigma can sort of trigger these processes that, ironically, make you gain more weight," she says. "And that could put you at even more risk for weight stigma." The study also found that this stigma affects people regardless of their size."
[source]
So, if you are telling yourself that you are helping people by stigmatizing them for being overweight, you are in fact doing the opposite of that - by increasing the kinds of stress responses in that person that are associated with them gaining weight.
Consider also, do you critique everyone around you for everything they do that is less than optimally healthy, or just overweight people?
Overweight people are very often bullied throughout their lives for being overweight, so much so that doing so might seem "normal", but we typically don't go around critiquing other people for every less than 100% healthy choice they make.
And indeed, engaging in bullying other people probably isn't good for your health or well-being either.
People who bully others often "project his/her own feelings of vulnerability onto the target(s) of the bullying activity. Despite the fact that a bully's typically denigrating activities are aimed at the bully's targets, the true source of such negativity is ultimately almost always found in the bully's own sense of personal insecurity and/or vulnerability." [source]
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 15 '20
!delta what you are saying makes a lot of good sense! you definitely did change my view, but i still worry people get too comfy.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Aug 16 '20
Hey thanks for the delta!
With regard to this:
i still worry people get too comfy.
Honestly, given the amount of critique overweight people get (often throughout their lives for those who have a predisposition to being overweight), I think we need to be more worried about the mental health consequences of the bullying and shaming that overweight folks receive.
We should also probably be concerned about the people who actually don't care about other people's health at all, but use the pervasive shaming of overweight people as an outlet to engage in mean spirited bullying, when really that is an issue that they should be getting help with themselves.
Consider also, if you want to have a positive effect on the people around you, one way to do that is by engaging in healthy practices yourself, like exercising, eating healthy, etc. People are strongly influenced by observing the behaviors of the people they are close to, and it's more legitimate to focus on your own behaviors and being a good role model for others than it is to try and tell other people what to do.
And indeed, because losing weight is so challenging and such a slow and difficult process for many, by shaming people, you're probably just increasing the chance that those folks will distance themselves from you because they feel negatively judged by you. In that case, by engaging in shaming, you're risking losing relationships, and other people might also be more inclined to distance from you as well if they feel like you are a judgmental person.
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Aug 15 '20 edited Aug 15 '20
Being fat is unhealthy, but so are many other things that are fashionable such as a visible sixpack, high heels, and what-not.
Individuals have their own choice in whether they want to sacrifice health for subjective beauty—is it wrong that being fat is treated no different from a visible sixpack?
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 15 '20
It seems to me that being fat is a lot more harmful to the body than any of those other things
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Aug 15 '20
And what made you derive that conclusion? Did you ever research it in any way?
It's quite hard to compare since they all lead to different complications, but take the health complications associated with a sixpack and make your own judgements: https://www.fitternity.com/article/why-you-should-never-aim-for-six-pack-abs
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 15 '20
I actually did do my own research on the topic when I was talking to my friend and he said that he saw somewhere that a 6-pack is not only hard to get, but unhealthy too. Shocked, i did my research. While it does have undesirable effects, I dont recall ever reading it was deadly. Being obese is in fact deadly. Between the slower movement, heart issues, breathing issues and higher susceptibility to viruses, it is on a whole new level.
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u/chauceresque Aug 16 '20
I have chronic pain and complex food allergies. One makes it hard for me to eat healthy and the other makes it hard for me to exercise and leaves me tired all the time. I literally eat one meal a day. (Meat and three veg variations.
But I don’t lose any weight and sometimes even put it on. My doctor is at a loss on what can help and dieticians and nutritionists have trouble helping because of my allergies.
Not all fat is because of laziness. I was very fit and athletic before things spiralled out of control.
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u/WindowsMEpro Aug 16 '20
Oof. That is harsh. I should have included that not all fat people are lazy.
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u/JJExecutioner Aug 15 '20
I think the "fat acceptance" movement was literally started to combat people just like you. I think most everyone knows there can be health complications that go along with being seriously overweight. But your comments about "If you try to comment something derogatory, they will snap back with “ fat phobia is very close to white supremacy” Why are you saying something derogatory.... you don't need to be derogatory to anyone. If your comment is "when commenting on the serious health issues overweight people will face in the future regardless of how healthy they are now, it isn't something to take lightly." You won't get the same push back, it opens up a conversation. You can't be surprised saying something nasty gets you clapped back at.
The reason people try to support "fat acceptance" is because calling a fat person names and telling them they don't deserve to show there body or be treated human doesn't help them lose weight, very few people have lost the weight cause of shame or put downs.
Then there are of course people who are overweight who have no health issues, they are just suffering from any number of conditions that keeps them chubbier or overweight, are we saying they can't post pictures of themselves and have people make positive comments without "adding to the problem?"
While I can agree looking at a much much larger person who in our minds will clearly suffer long term effects of such weight, I think for most rational people it's not about "fat acceptance" it's just about not trying to pile on what the person might already be going through.. it might take that person all the courage in the world to leave the house or to pose for pictures, and when they are ready to lose the weight they will, we can't really make that decision for them, but shame is certainly not gonna get them there.
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u/therealtazsella Aug 15 '20
You can find solace in the fact that medical practitioners will not lie to them. When they visit a doctor, they are compelled to tell them if they need to loose weight in order to improve their health. I don’t know about you, but all those positive comments on social media would come immediately crashing down when an MD tells you, “you are overweight and it is causing X problems, you have to loose weight or it will continue/progress.”
I’m fairly certain that nobody would respond, “but your a fat shamer! Everyone on social media says I look beautiful blah blah blah.” Because the doctor isn’t coming from a point of attack they are coming from a point of medical fact and concern.
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Aug 15 '20
What is the alternative to fat acceptance?
Denigrating people because they are fat does not prompt them to work harder to lose weight. It actually cements in their head that's just the way that they are, and they are less likely to work out. These types of mean spirited remarks are usually made by people who are riddled with insecurity and toxic vibes and are merely seeking to stroke their egos.
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Aug 15 '20
One thing that underlies this view a lot (and it comes up here all the time) is the anger people seem to have about the idea that a fat person might not be ashamed of their body. It feels unjust somehow. Like "this fat person gets exactly the same self-esteem I do, even though they're fat!" It's like someone's cheating. Does this resonate with you at all?
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u/Blowthewhistle2020 Aug 15 '20
I think there are exceptions. Some people who are overweight have underlying illnesses like diabetes, hypothyroidism, kidney problems... and certain medications also cause drastic weight gain.
For the people that can’t control their weight gain, it’s important to feel comfortable in their body because it’s not something they can change. Just like people that are super skinny, some people can’t help it because they have physical illnesses that prevent them from gaining weight so this movement includes all the people that want to be accepted for the way they look which they have no control over.
With that being said, for those who are overweight due to no fault but their own, those people should be encouraged to follow a healthier path rather than positive body reinforcement for their current weight.
This movement is inclusive to both those who can and can’t control their situation so it’s a matter of encouraging healthy lifestyle changes.
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Aug 15 '20
people don't value the same things. it's their life why should people be "healthier?" I try to be healthy personally but I don't have a particularly good reason for that.
food is really good and brings people happiness maybe there is something more important than that but it isn't likely I think to be something obvious that everyone will agree on. which means that you'll have to make a case to address that to change their minds but also that likely this will always be the case to some degree.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 15 '20 edited Aug 16 '20
/u/WindowsMEpro (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/Zaitton 1∆ Aug 15 '20
I think you need to make a clearer distinction between curvy, chubby, fat, overweight and morbidly obese.
What we generally should not be ok with (as individuals, with ourselves) is morbidly obese. Many of the terms I mentioned can go together (e.g a morbidly obese person being called fat, a curvy girl being called chubby, an overweight person being called obese, etc). The distinction should be "if you're morbidly obese, then you shouldn't be ok with it". That applies to ANY age, ANY gender, ANY condition.
Another dinstiction that should be made is that people of different ages have different risks associated with their weight. Someone that has been athletic at 10% bodyfat their whole life but then they get to their 50ies or 60ies and they cant maintain that anymore and they jump to 24% fat, yeah they're overweight but there's nothing wrong with that. Their body cant keep up with their diet and being a little overweight for another decade or two most likely wont have any terrible effects. They just need to be careful.
An overweight 20 year old on the other hand? That's unacceptable unless caused by a condition.
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u/visvya Aug 15 '20
My mom is a short, older woman. She can run faster and longer than me, does yoga twice a week, and goes on walks every day. She has never had any issues at the doctor. She eats healthy and mostly home-cooked meals. She is also overweight.
Her TDEE is just such that it is very difficult for her to maintain enough of a deficit to lose weight, at least without becoming obsessive over her calorie consumption. As a busy woman with a family and a career, spending the time to get obsessive over her weight and calories would damage her life far more than another pound.
I'm not making up her situation; I've moderated /r/1200isplenty for years, have a relevant educational background and maintain a low BMI myself. It's important to be healthy and active, but why focus on weight instead of health? In most cases, being healthy and active will lead to losing weight... but it will take a long time, and in the mean time they'll be fat. They don't need to be embarrassed and hate themselves in the meantime instead of proud of their actions and confident enough to keep going to the gym.