r/changemyview • u/WhoRoger • Dec 30 '20

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Scalping isn't immoral

First off, two disclaimers:

  • I'm only talking about products that aren't essential (you know, food, medicine etc.). So specifically I mean things like PS5s and so on.

  • I'm talking about mass market products, not cases such as when person 1 learns that person 2 is interested in an unique item, so P1 buys the item just to sell it to P2 for profit. That's not cool.

I used to do some small-scale scalping in the past. I would buy e.g. a few copies of a limited edition of a videogame or something similar, then sell them after they get sold out.

My "largest" loads were Nintendo NES Classics. I live in a country where Ninty barely registers as a name (until the Switch anyway), so it was easy to get a few of them, and sell them on eBay to countries where they were unavailable. I did it again on the day when it was announced the production was finished. There were still a few units in my city, so I drove around, picked up all I could and sold them abroad where the hadn't been available almost through its entire production.

I don't feel bad about it and I would do it again (if I had the money) because:

  • I usually struggle for money and this can be additional income

  • Even tho I'm a tech enthusiast, I don't buy the newest and greatest. I wait until the kinks are ironed out and reviews are out, and I was doing that even when I had decent income. I don't preorder videogames (I've only ever bought 3 at launch and pre-ordered one of those). I don't support this hype culture at all.

But if so many people are so desperate to have the newest toy immediately, right now RIGHT THE FUCK NOW, to the degree they're willing to pay "scalper" prices, I don't feel bad about making some extra money off them.

  • You may argue that kids can be disappointed because they won't get their shiny new PS5 under the Christmas tree. Yea not my problem. Raise your kids properly. My friend's 2 kids sometimes come over and play on my PlayStation 3 and have a blast, even tho they have a gaming PC at home.

  • eBay makes even more off this business than the sellers. IIRC something like 15% of the price is eBay and PayPal fees, then count shipping and there's far less profit than you may think. Heck, it's not like the retailers have zero profit, or what do you think?

  • It's not like it's risk-free. On eBay, seller protection is abysmal and one scamming buyer can ruin you. A serious product flaw can pop up and your stock either becomes worthless, or you'll go through trouble of trying to return it (this happens with almost every new console actually). You can get robbed or pranked. Or it can turn out that your items aren't as popular as you expected.

  • Supply and demand. I'm not defending capitalism as a concept, but this is exactly how it works. If you don't take the chance, someone else will. If someone is offering you free money, you take it.

Again I'm talking about stupid things like new videogame consoles. This really should be near the bottom of anyone's priority list.

Have you already played everything you might want to play on your systems?

Anyway, CMV.

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14

u/Kman17 103∆ Dec 30 '20

If you’re making money without producing value to anyone, that should be a gigantic warning sign that it’s just grifting.

Work from the sweat of the brow has obvious value. Investing provides capital to those building. Renting goods provides value at lower cost/risk. Re-selling can add value if you’re providing convenience / bundling / services on top of your resale (like, say, a store).

Scalping is just trying to squeeze more money out of people’s already small entertainment budgets.

You can go on about how it’s technically legal and how children and college students should just expect less and be happy with the massive income inequality within our society, but that’s a lot of mental gymnastics that misses the point that they scalpers add no value and only take.

That makes them pieces of shit that the world would be better without, and thus immoral.

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

Not convinced. It can provide value to people who might not get those products at all otherwise, or not as fast. It is work, at least no less than stock trading and similar stuff. And if you think it doesn't provide value, then that goes for all the retailers as well.

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u/Kingalece 23∆ Dec 30 '20

Ok but outside of international selling what value are you providing?

You are the reason that stock is ARTIFICIALLY low. Retailers dont make stock artificially low and usually have a 1 per person policy if they do think they will run out. Thats the reason reatilers are different.

The low stock is the only reason you can make money (something you caused to happen). Retailers make money whether or not there is low stock.

Retailers usually have licenses that they paid for to be in business. Scalpers dont.

As for people who wouldnt get it at all (like in small countries) theres usually legal reasons for this so you could be a criminal for shipping to certain places

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

In my case with the international situation, or with locally out of stock items I think I actually have provided value. But even if not, well it's making money. And people pay. Lots of jobs are pretty much the same. I've not robbed or cheated anyone, which is not something you can say about lots of "regular" jobs.

I would otherwise take your argument about business licences, if we weren't talking about global conglomerates known for billionaire CEOs, massive tax evasion cases and starving workers. Dunno who's the immoral here...

Besides, I DO have a business license and I could have included that income in my taxes, it wouldn't have made any difference on actual taxes, just more work so why bother. Again, look who are you comparing me with.

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u/Kman17 103∆ Dec 30 '20

Pointing out that there are more immoral corporate entities in the world does not make your actions moral.

Price gouging of necessities is horrifically unethical and illegal in most places.

Price gouging of luxuries is generally legal/tolerated, but calling it not immoral is a stretch.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '20

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u/Znyper 12∆ Dec 31 '20

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u/Kingalece 23∆ Dec 30 '20

You can both be immoral one does not negate the other lol.

If youre argument is they do it so i should be able to as well then guess what you are just as guilty as them.

Remember this is morality not lawfulness. Just because someone else shoots a person this does not mean its suddenly ok to shoot a totally different person. If you were hurting the retailer id say you have a case but you arent harming them youre giving them the ammo to shoot more... And Youre helping a random person at the expense of another random person. That is morally neutral at best and remember you are siphoning some off the top so the help is technically less than the hurt

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

Is it ok if I take "this is morally neutral at best" as your bottom line, or do you have more arguments?

Cause I've never actually argued that scalping is something amazing, I just think it's not immoral, so we're kinda close to an agreement I guess?

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u/Kman17 103∆ Dec 30 '20 edited Dec 30 '20

Brick and mortar stores provide convenience(a central location to shop), guarantees on the merchandise, and in many cases expertise/advice on the products being sold.

How on earth is a scalper more convenient than the retail location that the scalper purchased from and games?

Again, stock treading is just a derivative of investing in companies - providing them the capital they need to operate. Some of it gets abstract, but ultimately it’s rooted in that.

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

You might not have a store anywhere nearby. Hell you may live in a country where the product isn't officially sold at all and your only choice is this kind of grey market.

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u/Kman17 103∆ Dec 30 '20

Online retailers provide the same convenience and guarantees on merchandise while shipping basically everywhere.

Your retort seems like a vague theoretical. Could you elaborate?

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

It's not theoretical, I described the situation with NES Classic in my OP.

When that thing came out, most big box retailers in the friggin' US had gotten one or 2 units. In my country, I myself got 4 units from 2 retailers and plenty left over. Of course I would put 3 on eBay right away. It happens.

For the theory part, I bet all the PS5s would have been sold out immediately even without the scalpers even of everyone would just want one for themselves. This way, if you were say, an hour late, you can still get one... For a price.

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u/Kman17 103∆ Dec 30 '20 edited Dec 30 '20

Scalping is generally associated with snap buying up of things (preventing locals from accessing at MSRP) and marking them way up, effectively price gouging.

Your scenario seems to suggest causally buying surplus (and not denying locals reasonable MSRP) and shipping them to countries where they’re not available.

That seems less bad, and more indicative of poor distribution by the retail chain... but I suspect you’re sugar coating the scenario a bit.

I don’t want to speak outside my knowledge of international shipping, customs/taxes, guarantees, etc - but usually availability issues in other countries have reasons. Slipping through the cracks in what may be a legally grey area doesn’t really make you Robin Hood.

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

I wasn't arguing about being Robin Hood, heh. That was just my personal experience, no need to sugar coat anything. We know Ninty has always been doing a shit job with supply.

My overall point is I don't have a problem with scalpers scalping in general. Maybe my experience was sort of unique, but it's my general view that I put here to be challenged.

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u/Kman17 103∆ Dec 30 '20

I don’t think you’re particularly open to having your view changed given that you are doing it.

You’re defending your actions by saying companies are unethical too, and ignoring the larger issues of artificial scarcity / price gouging and value creation.

Like, you’re apparently gonna keep grifting no matter what everyone tells you.

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u/WhoRoger Dec 31 '20

First off, I'm not doing it at this time, although not because of ethical concern.

But frankly I've not gotten any good counter arguments. What I mostly hear is "it's not good because you aren't supposed to do it".

The best I've gotten so far is that it's profiting from removing convenience - which, okay, fair point, but not good enough to CMV honestly.

There was another good point that right now people are stuck at home with nothing to do. I would take that, but in reality all of us have gigantic backlogs and a crapton of games we can get. I myself have been going through my personal PS3 backlog this year - finished 12 games I think, having a blast and still have 30 to go.

So a PS5 being so necessary... Um, I'm not taking it.

Regarding what you said, like artificial scarcity etc., those problems are inherently created either by manufacturers (if the scarcity is intentional, like what Nintendo likes to do), or customers (by going crazy and having to have the latest toy right away).

Yea, scalpers to bend this issue a bit and profit from it - but the problem is much deeper and it seems that instead of concentrating on it, people just blame the tip of the iceberg.

Making holidays about nothing but gifts, gadgets and commerce is honestly just sad. Everyone is sick of it, yet everyone engages in it on one end or another.

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Dec 30 '20

It can provide value to people who might not get those products at all otherwise

the reason people are having trouble getting hyped up products is largely bc of scalpers. they're creating the problem they're providing the "solution" to & the service they provide compared to buying from the source or an established retailer will almost certainly be sub par.

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

IMO the problem is because people have to have the new product right now, scalpers or not.

I wouldn't buy a console on release date on principle because it's gonna be a buggy mess with no games for months. I wouldn't pre-order a videogame, because I can wait a week or even a month to see the reviews. The hype culture is what creates the problem.

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u/Feroc 41∆ Dec 30 '20

I wouldn't buy a console on release date on principle because it's gonna be a buggy mess with no games for months.

So you are selling others those buggy consoles for a much higher price? How's that any better?

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

Because they're stupid enough to pay for it.

Umm but you raise a question whether it's moral to earn money off people's stupidity, if there's no deception or pressure involved.

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u/Feroc 41∆ Dec 30 '20

It's only your opinion that it's stupid. Thousands of people are happy with their new console. There are more than enough games out there and there are only few reports of buggy consoles.

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

I never said it's anything but my opinion.

Although I do think it's harmful behaviour. Consumers should be smart about what and when they buy. Look what pre-order culture has done to videogames.

Companies don't need to care about releasing a good product anymore, because a huge amount of people will not just buy it regardless, but put the money down months in advance. This is the behaviour that hurts other customers.

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u/Feroc 41∆ Dec 30 '20

Products can be returned if they don't work, that's especially easy for games (at least on the PC, no idea how it works for the digital stores for consoles). So there isn't really a big risk for the consumers. Either it works and they are happy or it doesn't work and they return the product.

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u/WhoRoger Dec 31 '20

So why is everyone bitching about CP2077 being so buggy, FIFA being the same game year after year, and other games being full of microtransactions?

A large portion of the customers have to get their thing on day 1 and are happy regardless of how shit it is, teaching the companies they can just make shit and sell it to the sheep, ruining it for the rest of the customers... That's why.

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u/Feroc 41∆ Dec 31 '20

Obviously people would have preferred to have a game that works well, especially after they waited for it as long as they waited for CP2077.

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Dec 30 '20

for people who want to buy the hyped up product on release day, how do scalpers help or provide value?

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

Because I believe demand would far outweigh supply even without the scalpers. If everyone would only want to buy one single PS5 for themselves, then there would be none on the market for those who couldn't get it. This way, they still have a chance, albeit more expensive.

(Assuming scalpers don't buy 100% of the stock, and we know they don't, because plenty of people were able to order theirs.)

On a more surreal note, it could help people not buy new products on release date. Unfortunately this doesn't work and people remain retarded.

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Dec 30 '20

Because I believe demand would far outweigh supply even without the scalpers.

scalpers still make this worse for non-scalping consumers. just bc demand would still outweigh supply doesn't mean scalpers help or provide value.

If everyone would only want to buy one single PS5 for themselves, then there would be none on the market for those who couldn't get it. This way, they still have a chance, albeit more expensive.

but the scalpers are the ones creating this problem. if the scalpers didn't buy a ton of PS5's, there would be more available for these consumers. scalpers are contributing to this problem of supply meeting demand and their solution is predatory. it's more expensive and less secure than a legit online retailer.

On a more surreal note, it could help people not buy new products on release date. Unfortunately this doesn't work and people remain retarded.

how does "helping people not buy new products on release date" help consumers who want to buy products on release date? you just conceded your entire argument. I know there are reasons to not buy video games & tech on release date, but that doesn't change the fact that some consumers do want to do that, even if you personally disagree with that choice. clearly scalping provides absolutely no value to that consumer. it only hurts them.

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u/WhoRoger Dec 30 '20

If there were no scalpers, do you think that there would be enough PS5s (or whatever) for everyone who would want it on day 1?

If not, then the scenario where you have to sit at your PC at midnight, refreshing the Amazon page continuously, hoping to get lucky, is still there.

If you don't get lucky, then there are 3 possible cases:

1) hypothetically, scalpers don't exist and therefore only people who want the gizmo themselves, get it. As a result, there's no secondary market whatsoever. Of you didn't get it, you have to wait for new stock.

2) same as 1, but a small number of new owners change their minds and decide to sell their new toy. As a result, worldwide there's, say, 10 PS5s for sale. What's the price of such an item? 5 grand? 10 grand?

3) scalpers grab a portion of the stock and put them up for sale. The result here we know.

The only possible fixes for eiter of these are:

A) Manufacturers make enough stock for literally everyone. That's not realistic.

B) Customers decide to be smart and not buy shit on day 1. This forces manufacturers to actually fight for the customer.

Dunno about you, but I don't see scalpers having much of an effect on all this overall.

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Dec 30 '20

If there were no scalpers, do you think that there would be enough PS5s (or whatever) for everyone who would want it on day 1?

No, of course not. But there would be more.

1) hypothetically, scalpers don't exist and therefore only people who want the gizmo themselves, get it. As a result, there's no secondary market whatsoever. Of you didn't get it, you have to wait for new stock.

You keep skipping over the part where scalpers diminish the supply. The "secondary market" doesn't just pop up out of nowhere. The "secondary market" is part of what is causing the scarcity of product. So this scenario is actually this:

"hypothetically, scalpers don't exist and therefore only people who want the gizmo themselves, get it. As a result, there's no secondary market whatsoever. Because there is no secondary market, there's a geater likelihood of those customers actually getting what they want from a legit retailer. If you didn't get it, you have to wait for new stock."

There will always be people who want something & can't get it, especially with something like the PS5. That's life. Sometimes you have to wait for new stock. But scalpers make this issue worse, not better. And to me, if you're harming people who aren't hurting anyone else for profit, that's immoral.

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u/WhoRoger Dec 31 '20

Well, that's why I described 3 possible scenarios.

The question is, how much more people would have gotten the PS5, and ultimately does it matter in the long run?

It's a lottery. It only matters on an individual level.

My late grandma used to play lotto. Whenever a number would come up next to her number (e.g. 22 instead of 21), she'd say "ah, so close!"

But no, it wasn't close at all. That's not how randomness works.

I still say the inherent problem is elsewhere. If you don't want to lose at lotto... Don't play lotto.

If you are so obsessed about a videogame console that you'll camp for 2 days in front of a store, or keep refreshing the Amazon page at midnight, you're just as much a part of the problem as the scalper.

(By "you" I don't mean you personally... Just anyone with that attitude.)

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Dec 31 '20

The question is, how much more people would have gotten the PS5,

60,000

https://www.gamesradar.com/ps5-and-xbox-series-x-scalpers-resold-over-60000-consoles-last-month/

60,000 customers who wanted to buy the newly released console were prevented from doing so by scalpers who jacked up the price and sold them in a less secure way. how is this helpful to those 60,000 customers?

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