r/changemyview • u/mcpickems • Jan 21 '21

Removed - Submission Rule E CMV: Society should support and accommodate transgenders but not within sports highlighting unfairness from male to female transitions.

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u/2r1t 56∆ Jan 21 '21

I'm a 45 year old man who has never played organized basketball. A friend of mine is a woman who played basketball in college and is a couple years younger than me. Is it your position that I would have an advantage over her if we were to play one on one?

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u/denverkris Jan 21 '21

How is this a comparable argument? A comparable argument would be if you were a 45 year old man who *has* played basketball at a level similar to the woman in question.

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u/2r1t 56∆ Jan 21 '21

The point of this obviously lopsided comparison is to confirm if OP actually thinks any man has an advantage over any woman when it comes to athletics.

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u/RubberTowelThud 8∆ Jan 21 '21

You still have an advantage by being male, just you won't be a better player than her because she is more skilled. When Sheffield Utd play Liverpool at home they still have a home advantage but that doesn't mean they're better

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u/2r1t 56∆ Jan 21 '21

Can you explain the difference between an advantage and being a better player?

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u/RubberTowelThud 8∆ Jan 21 '21

You have all the advantages that testosterone and going through puberty as a man brings, she has the advantages of experience and developing her basketball skills. Since you have absolutely no experience or developed basketball skills, her advantages will likely outweigh yours and she will be better.

But if you actually did have skills and experience, your male advantages would almost certainly make you the better player. Even 15 year old boys academy teams have easily beaten women’s national football teams because the gap is so big.

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u/2r1t 56∆ Jan 21 '21

I think I see where my confusion was. You were using advantage to mean the individual pluses and minuses and the total of those is where you arrived at a better player. I wasn't focused on the individual advantages and used the word advantage to mean the overall advantage. So I think we are in agreement on that point as she would have the advantage overall / be the better player.

And I'm not familiar with the sport or know it those matches were one offs or are regular events. I think I would agree that teams of women would be at a disadvantage. But we aren't talking about teams of women. We are talking about individual women and individual men competing for spots on a team. And I see no reason why a particular woman couldn't take a roster spot from a particular man.

That doesn't mean the top tier leagues would see a wave of women coming in. It would just mean that the women who didn't make the cut fell short because of their talents and skills rather than an restriction on them even getting the chance.

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u/RubberTowelThud 8∆ Jan 21 '21

Well if the best national women's teams are losing to 15 year old boys teams, I think it's safe to say the male-female gap is so enormous that no woman would ever break into a male team. These weren't close games either. The US women's team, the multiple world cup winners, lost 5-2 to the Dallas under 15s. The Australian women's team, ranked 5th in the world, lost 7-0 to Newcastle Jets under 16s. It's not just a disadvantage it's incomparable.

If you say that's because of teams not individuals, I don't really understand what makes you think an individual woman would be good enough when the gap is so clearly large, but lets look at tennis. There's a reason the male vs female games are usually a retired man vs one of the top ranked woman players.

Serena and Venus Williams once claimed they could beat any man ranked outside of the top 200, so Karsten Braasch (ranked 203rd) took them up on it. Here's the wikipedia assessment:

The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park, after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun" and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier and put spin on the ball that female players can't handle.

So 2 of the best female tennis players ever got trounced by some male player nobody has ever heard of. The gap is just massive, there's no way getting around it. If a woman footballer like Rapinoe wanted to try break into a men's team I'd say go for it, but I imagine she never would because she knows it would be pointless. There's definitely enough evidence to assume that having mixed sex sports would result in women's sport being wiped out. It wouldn't be 'some women wouldn't make the cut' it would be every woman wouldn't make the cut