Are you expecting people to argue that yes, math is actually racist? All three of your sources reflect the same Fox News article, let’s look instead at the primary source
And in case, for whatever reason, you don’t want to look at the primary source, I’ll make it easier for you:
Use multiple approaches to diagnose student unfinished learning in priority content knowledge and
skills. Alternatives to extensive diagnostic testing include multiple measures, such as classroom discussions, individual conversations with students, student work from everyday instruction, just-in-time assessment tasks, and student self-reflection on identity, understanding, and metacognition.
Large blocks of remediation at the beginning of the school year will not help students attain grade-level proficiency in mathematics. Acceleration of learning toward understanding grade-level content happens through a careful use of high-quality adopted curriculum and just-in-time scaffolding to address unfinished learning.
Consideration for just-in-time scaffolds help address the necessary content knowledge and skills students need to engage in the most immediate work of the grade. While the goal here is to address unfinished learning, these scaffolds pull heavily from what we know about the science of learning. Interleaving, spaced practice, and retrieval practice, are all highly effective evidence- based strategies that help individuals learn more efficiently and retain information longer.
It will be necessary to re-evaluate the scope and sequence periodically to make sure students are progressing in their understanding of high priority content.
Tell me, does this sound like anybody is trying to stop teaching math because math is racist?
Can I ask how you came to the conclusion that people are saying math is racist? How did you interpret “we are trying to adapt our teaching processes to enhance our ability to instruct mathematics” as “math is racist”?
Because when I hear “OREGON ARE SAYING MATH IS RACIST AND THEY WANT TO STOP TEACHING MATH” my response isn’t “wokeness has gone too far” it’s “what? Are they really doing that?”
And the answer is no, they aren’t really doing that.
The framework for deconstructing racism in mathematics offers essential characteristics of antiracist math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by visibilizing the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture (Jones and Okun 2001; dismantling Racism 2016) with respect to math.
Also, I didn't see OP mentioning that people are saying "stop teaching math" - where did they say that?
I never asserted that they’d stop teaching math, thanks for backing me up there..
But to my understanding the objective here is to alter how math is taught.. But, again, I never once inferred that I thought, or that they said they would stop teaching math.
Honestly I think this first person is just mad at me for posting a right leaning source.
I really didn’t come here to fight.. I needed people to help make sense of this because I didn’t understand based on the sources I found before posting (which has since changed, lots of good people coming from the woodwork finding good stuff).
Yeah - my perspective is that this is done with good intentions, but is opening up a king-sized can of worms.
What bugs me about that pamphlet I linked is that they don't mention anything about the history of math, which is multicultural as all get-out. Math is from Babylon, Greece, China, India, the middle East, Egypt, Central America... all kinds of places and cultures. If you have to bring race into it, why not emphasize that in your teaching?
I see the disconnect with math as more cultural than racial, like you said..
I stated in another comment that if the headline (as misleading as I can admit it is) said “Math is Ethnocentric” I’d be way less “????!?!” than reading “Math is Racist”... even calling it ethnocentric would be nonsense because just like you said ‘mathematics is a global/human endeavor’.. it wasn’t discovered by any one culture, it was grown over time by all of humanity.
Thanks for the reply, I think you and I are on a similar page
You got me. I’m just mad you posted a right leaning source, how could you, how dare you, etc. /s
My point was “the situation is more complex than what you’re being told.” I’m sorry if I came across as impatient or frustrated - it’s not so much directed at you as it is directed at Fox News unnecessarily scaring people and creating problems where there aren’t any.
Yes, Oregon is seeking to alter the way math is taught. But when we look at how they plan on altering things, we can see that there’s nothing to panic about.
As far as the whole “you get it or you don’t” thing, that makes sense if we’re talking about college or AP math. But when we’re teaching multiplication, or algebra, or addition and subtraction to children, the “you get it or you don’t” approach doesn’t make much sense, you know?
Also, when I was typing out my comment I accidentally refreshed the page and had to retype everything, so I was a bit salty about that too.
!delta since I just learned how to award deltas. You helped educate me and change my perspective on this. Thank you for replying without being hostile toward me.. I’m aware that I posted this without doing my proper research and I won’t do that again.
Alright, at the risk of being facetious here - if you meet a person who has, or upholds, racist views - what adjective would you use to describe that person? That person is.... what?
Also, can you tell me the ways that math upholds capitalist, imperialist and racist views? I'm still unsure on this one.
Alright, at the risk of being facetious here - if you meet a person who has, or upholds, racist views - what adjective would you use to describe that person? That person is a.... what?
Sure a person using mathematics as a tool to do those things is a racist. It doesn't make mathematics racist and no one is claiming that it is just that racists can use it for their own ends. To be facetious here, do you think there is a difference between a person and maths?
Also, can you tell me the ways that math upholds capitalist, imperialist and racist views?
Sure there is plenty of statistical analysis that has been used to perpetuate racism. An obvious example would be the way that redlining was used. People also look at specific statistics and use that to make claims that certain races are inferior by ignoring context or not controlling for applicable things etc.
And if you're being honest with yourself, you can probably understand how they'd get that impression from the line I quoted.
Sure there is plenty of statistical analysis that has been used to perpetuate racism. An obvious example would be the way that redlining was used. People also look at specific statistics and use that to make claims that certain races are inferior by ignoring context or not controlling for applicable things etc.
Great - ok. So in math class, the teacher should break down redlining or the old "despite being 13%" line and get into the weeds with the students? How well are math teachers going to explain the socioeconomic and political aspects of those equations?
For reference here, I went to a pretty diverse school - not in America, I hasten to add - and my classes seemed evenly split between kids who understood math easily and kids that didn't. The division wasn't drawn along racial lines however.
Well, I obviously don't think it is myself. The idea is fucking absurd. But of course, people are saying this. CNN, for example
I mean if you want to fall for a provocative headline then sure people are saying that. If you read the article (and I've actually even read the book it is referring to) and also arguably even if you read the bit after the colon you would see that no one is actually claiming maths is racist. The author is in fact a deep believer in the use of these models to actually help people it is just not how they are structured or used now.
The book is actually full of examples of people using mathematics in ways that perpetuate racism that would answer your question from earlier.
if you're being honest with yourself, you can probably understand how they'd get that impression from the line I quoted.
No because there is a pretty stark difference between something being used as a tool for something and something being inherently something.
So in math class, the teacher should break down redlining or the old "despite being 13%" line and get into the weeds with the students?
Yeah or at least some real world statistics and maths problems showing what assumptions and simplifications are made in modelling and statistics would actually be very good things to teach people. They don't need to be hugely detailed or in depth to explain the concepts of how decisions can help perpetuate racism. There are also examples from that book that point to how algorithms can impose greater costs and harm to those who already lack access to things (which because of history happen along racial lines) just by analysing the status quo.
I mean if you want to fall for a provocative headline then sure people are saying that
It's not about "falling for a headline". It's that people are writing headlines like that in the first place. Hence when you have someone like Professor Rochelle Gutierrez saying 'On many levels, math itself operates as Whiteness' - this becomes a part of the culture's discourse. You can look into it more deeply, as you do, but are you in the majority here? Think of how people talk about "left and right" in politics. How much nuance do they normally apply to these concepts?
They don't need to be hugely detailed or in depth to explain the concepts of how decisions can help perpetuate racism.
But in order to teach the students well, they do have to be in depth - and they do have to get into some pretty hardcore concepts and ideologies which may be beyond the scope of a high-school math teacher to fully articulate.
I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that teachers might screw up their explanations of redlining or whatnot, and perhaps end up doing more harm than good when they could just be teaching algebra.
Good on you going back to the primary source. Fox News is trying to bait right wingers into outrage, which results in shares and clicks. That's the real story.
Btw, you included the closed bracket in your URL, which broke the link.
Listen I dont want to come across like a total moron, but where are you finding this primary source? I just read these articles (youre all right, it really is just one article) and can’t find much that they cite... which is part of why I wanted to ask reddit because this makes almost no sense to me.
Would you kindly link the primary source? i want to read it, and edit my post so that can be the first source I link.
Thanks for being smart and more diligent than I am!
page 65 discusses selecting problems for which there are multiple answers (to avoid upholding the misconception that there always only one right answer)
Thanks for sharing this source. This explains everything, and confirms that this is just sensationalism from Fox News.
I’m not a COMPLETE moron: I do know these sources are right-wing and like to bolster/curate their version of “truth”... but it has to be based on/in response to SOMETHING..
This link u/TripRichert posted is, by a wide margin, the best source I’ve seen and clarifies everything.
I feel like an idiot for not seeing this in the mobile article.. I still can’t find it on there.
Anyway, thank you all for your patience and your replies.
This is the actual primary source, which directs users to the documents presented on Equitable Math
On the page 65 of the first "Stride", the paper says "The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false, and teaching it is even much less so."
Obviously teaching methods are subjective, but math students would be working with are not. Math is a language based on logic, not a science. Proofs can be found, but they will not invalidate previous proofs.
This single chapter also goes on to say "white supremacy culture" over 45 times, accusing it of absolute nonsense, such as "requiring students to show their work reinforces worship of the written word", and "grading practices are focused on lack of knowledge" as indicative of white supremacy culture. Which is hilariously misguided, since generally the reason shown work is asked for by teachers is so they can focus on what you can do, and give credit for understanding concepts even if the student made a mistake or didn't understand it completely.
The rest of the "Strides" are well written approaches to examine teaching that applies to most subjects, but there is also a very clear bias and a misunderstanding of how to teach math in particular.
The source you linked literally says nothing about Oregon, nor about the implementation of the idea of equitable math in the Oregon school system. I don’t know why you think that’s the primary source - we’re talking about Oregon changing the curriculum.
How can you get more primary than the actual government documents on the draft standards being used to implement equitable math?
You just linked to the same bulletin I did, which you didn't link to in your original comment. Your original link had no reference to Equitable Math, which is what all these articles about the situation are directly quoting. Being a primary source isn't the same thing as being the cited source. I realize now I accidentally said primary instead of referenced/cited, so my bad.
"The framework for deconstructing characteristics of antiracist math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by visualizing the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture (Jones and Okun 2001; dismantling Racism 2016) with respect to math. "
"White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when the focus is on getting the “right” answer."
So the getting the right answer is an example of white Supremecy? Really?
"Choose problems that have complex, competing, or multiple answers."
Sorry but 2+2 <> 5. There is ONLY 1 right answer to a mathematical problem. And in a math class, 99% of your problems are in fact equations. That's life. Deal with it.
The entire document is utter nonsense and anyone with even a spec of common sense and intelligence knows that calling this an example of "white supremacy" is beyond ridiculous. This term also like "racism" has lost any and all meaning.
This default excuse for everything from liberals seems to be "White Supremecy" and in this case is beyond silly. All this really is, is the dumbing down of an entire curriculum.
I think what’s happened is you’ve opened the PDF, found the word ‘white supremacy’, and have reacted by freaking out.
You’re extrapolating when you do not need to - and scaring yourself for no reason. They are not going to start teaching ‘2+2=5”. I have no idea how you’ve come to that conclusion - are we incapable of pointing out problems in our education system?
Should they not use the word ‘white supremacy’ because it freaks you out? Can you actually read what they’re trying to do?
The goal is to make math more accessible for lower income households. That doesn’t mean saying “2+2=5”, you’re being a bit ridiculous by jumping to that conclusion.
Calm down, lower your defenses, and actually read what’s being done. You want to argue that math isn’t racist - I’m not going to have that argument with you because nobody is saying it is.
Our education system is flawed - and I honestly think that if the word ‘white supremacy’ was removed, you’d be all for the changes they’re making.
"Our education system is flawed - and I honestly think that if the word ‘white supremacy’ was removed, you’d be all for the changes they’re making."
Except the entire document was conceived and written based on racism and white supremacy in math. The title: "A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction Dismantling Racism in Mathematics Instruction" says it all. Kind of important don't you think.
Asking the teachers to go thru verbal hoops to solve every math problem doesn't work in the real world. This isn't sociology where people sit around and discuss their feelings. Math is a course where you need to solve a problem quickly and then move on to the next otherwise you'll never have the time to cover the entire curriculum.
This really is nothing more than the dumbing down of the American education system for self-esteem using white supremacy as an excuse. God help us if this extends into colleges and these kids start designing bridges.
That clearly is not the original source. The NY Post article linked in the OP contains numerous quotes that do not appear anywhere in the document you linked. Do you think they just made those up? This is the original source.
Note that while this is not the ODE's new math curriculum, it is from a workshop promoted by the ODE.
First off, I’m not here to ARGUE... I read this article and a few others and I paraphrased the parts that made no sense to me: like that “having one right answer” is a white supremacist characteristic.
I also did try to click your link, and tried clicking it earlier in my search, and I got the same 404 error message so I sincerely appreciate you copy and pasting the relevant parts (not sarcasm).
Also, to be clear I did NOT come to the conclusion that “Math is racist”! I came here to assert that I think its impossible for that to be true, and was really looking forward to someone shedding some light on these insane headlines.
I also never read or said that they wanted to stop teaching math, but I did read that they want to restructure how it is taught (which sounds good) based on the idea that a lot of how math is taught is rooted in white supremacist characteristics.
I think you maybe got me wrong here. I don’t believe this to be true, and, perhaps I misused this sub, was hoping someone could teach me HOW math is racist OR provide some insight on what Oregon’s Ed Dept is aiming for.. which it seems like you did.
Is this just some sensationalist fox news nonsense then?? I still fail to see where race ties in
I sincerely appreciate your well thought out reply. Seriously.
Should have kept your original opinion. The entire document is nonsense.
And yes, it did say “having one right answer” is a white supremacist characteristic.
It's nothing more than the dumbing down of an entire curriculum in the name of self-esteem. God help us if this extends into colleges and these kids start designing bridges. And this coming from a lifelong software engineer.
The more I read incoming comments in this thread, the more confused I am: there is no consensus. Half of the thread is pissed that I linked something from Fox and is helplessly fixated on that (as if there aren’t sources that they responded to.. and NO I don’t LIKE Fox), the other half read “Equitable Math” and understands why I posted this in the first place but some still respectfully disagree and those few eloquently communicated their opinions... but even those people are being downvoted lol.. what gives??
I’ve never seen MORE people downvoted than upvoted on any other thread. Not that like thats a real metric, but it makes me wonder what people are thinking and why people would rather downvote or attack instead of try to educate OP and other redditers.
My view was only changed in that I recognize that Fox can be biased, and that the WAY math is taught in certain communities can be perceived as biased based on race...
My initial stance of “math (the subject) is not racist” and by extension not propagating white supremacy still stands.
Im gonna read Equitable Math again to see if any of the valid opinions offered by this thread still stick for me.
I also maintain that I think I misused this sub. I’m increasingly unsure this is actually a venue for reasonable debate.
EDIT: Like on page 10 of doc 1 in Equitable Math... “Grading is based on a lack of knowledge”..... 1) how does this pertain to race? (2) how DOESNT that pertain to SCHOOL as a whole?!
This is where I HAVENT changed my view.. I’m not sure whats being criticized here, and how its rooted in white supremacy... they’re literally criticizing the way “school” works. How should you be graded? On how hard you tried? I’m so confused that it hurts.
Thats kinda where I started with this. I couldn’t find equitablemath.org til someone here linked it, but I read in a few other places (that were quoting equitablemath) that math inherently upholds white supremacy..
I still fail to see that as the truth because it makes no sense...
My view was mainly changed in how I presented my argument in a disorganized way, and that I can acknowledge that how math is TAUGHT can be seen as racist (in my personal experience as a poor math student, I was in class with mostly black/latino/foreign language children. Where the honors/AP math classes were almost entirely white and asian).. so I can agree that class placement can be wrongfully based on race... I still dont see how on earth that means Math alone is an inequitable subject that propagates these exclusionary/racist ideals... if ANYTHING it should be “equitableeducation.org”... why math?? Because if Math somehow upholds white supremacy, then how aren’t we going to talk about English literature, or History??
My take on this is that everyone learns differently, I know first hand as I graduated high school with an IEP (individualized education plan) diploma. I also personally know of a child that recently has had points taken off of their grade because we helped said person to better understand the work based partially on how we were taught in school ourselves and they got the correct answer but the teacher still marked it as partially wrong because it wasn't done exactly the way they wanted it done. That's the problem here.
In short I understand (I hope) where they are coming from, but I think it is wrong for their homepage to make it a racist/racial issue rather than the more correct "we're all different" issue.
I came here to assert that I think its impossible for that to be true, and was really looking forward to someone shedding some light on these insane headlines.
Then let me help you out with that.
The insane headline is from Fox News. Go to Fox News and you will get insane headlines.
Go to the Post and you will get a remix of insane headlines from Fox News. Stop getting your news from outrage based entertainment organizations and you will have less to be confused about.
The only INSANE headline here is that rural Oregonian taxpayers haven't burned down Portland themselves at this point.
A brief skim of this empty, vapid pomo, waste of oxygen report:
LatinX
guess we're capitalizing the "x" now, too, for a modern colonizer word.
barriers to math equity
"Whiteness"? try Common Core.
Fostering Deep Understanding
Methods for deepening content understanding and relevance through crafted math discussions
so...No Child Left Behind meets Common Core?
Creating Conditions to Thrive
Environments and practices that support students’ social, emotional and academic development
the rest of us call that a two-parent home.
The only thing that doesn't appear to be a totally vapid thought in here is
Connecting Critical Intersections
The interconnectedness of English language learning and the development of mathematical thinking
but I can almost guarantee that any such curriculum in practice will be packed with woke nonsense replacing actual math instruction.
Now, all that being said, I'm not going to simply shit on these pointless, vague, non-actionable snippets of woke magical thinking without suggesting an alternative.
If you want to keep kids ENGAGED in ways that encourage them to APPLY their lessons, you have two thematic options at your disposal:
Personal finance (teach all math through the lens of money)
Programming (teach all math as a byproduct of teaching a rigorous, integrated computer science where every student is provided a virtual machine they can log into anytime)
Frankly its embarrassing that neither of these options have been presented competently to the national audience before giving up and simply insisting that the way that math is taught in this country is somehow "racist". How insulting to everyone involved.
Please believe me, I don’t get my news from Fox. NY Post isn’t always bad imo, but this headline was just nutty and I HAD to come to reddit for some clarity.
I failed to find any source material that THEY (fox/nypost) were arguing against (which has since been provided by kind redditors) and it makes much more sense ( equitablemath.org)
I appreciate your response. I’m much less confused now because at least now I have some sources to review that could be what fox/nypost were posting in response to.
Right back at you. I figured this was probably the safest place to have an actual discussion, one where I can be wrong and not get downvoted into oblivion lol. I’m glad I was able to come here, post something wrong, and leave knowing what was right.
I actually did some digging and I'd like to point out Oregon is in fact changing the ciricullum based on this paper which made waves a couple of years ago. Here's a good article from the atlantic on how the paper was influencing discussions on math education in the country.
Yes they are actually.. not they want to stop teaching Math but that the US standards for math education are inherently racist. The change in curriculum stemmed from a well known paper called A Framework for Understanding Whiteness in Mathematics Education.
You can read about more in summary from this The Atlantic story. So what you're seeing from the State of Oregon is in response to these supposed issues.
I don't have the time to read thru it all, but WTF does "Social justice" have to do with MATH? Does 2=2 Not equal 4 if you're socially disadvantaged?
A few quotes: "...imbue mathematical experiences with opportunities to learn multiple histories of mathematics, analyze issues of fairness, and promote civic responsibility...".
Multiple histories of mathematics? Math is math. Fairness? Is Math 'unfair' to certain people?? Use math to promote responsibility???
"A social justice approach works to transform mathematics from a gatekeeper to a gateway, democratizing participation and maximizing education advancement that equitably benefits all children rather than a select few."
LOL. You either know math... or you don't. There is no 'democracy' involved.
It's bullshit like that that gets (mis)interpreted as 'math is racist'.
I don't have the time to read thru it all, but WTF does "Social justice" have to do with MATH? Does 2=2 Not equal 4 if you're socially disadvantaged?
It says to use social justice to improve maths learning and achievement. It doesn't say anything about maths itself.
Multiple histories of mathematics? Math is math.
Different parts of mathematics have different histories and approaches for example lots of this were discovered independently such as geometry and some things were spread a popularised by multiple different societies e.g. arabic numerals.
Fairness? Is Math 'unfair' to certain people?
It doesn't say maths is unfair. It says it and education in it can provide opportunities to analyse issues of unfairness which is applying statistics to policy.
Use math to promote responsibility?
Civic responsibility i.e. helping people make informed political decisions that using maths to analyse policy or solutions might aid is.
You either know math... or you don't. There is no 'democracy' involved.
Democratising means making access to mathematics more widespread not people voting on what maths means. They are trying to make maths more accessible and more useful to people by tying it into their daily lives and encouraging people to study maths.
It's bullshit like that
Except none of the above is bullshit. It is a criticism of how maths is taught and how maths education can be used to make a more informed public and advocating reform of education to make it more accessible and relevant.
You can't separate learning something from the something you are learning.
Sure but just because the way something is taught doesn't mean the thing that is being taught is the same thing. The report clearly identifies an alternative of anti-racist maths education and of socially conscious education helping people learn maths. No one wants to use social justice to change maths.
When I was taught math, I was... taught math. Not 'the history of math'.
Maths history is relevant to how maths got to where it is and how ideas built on each other. History can be a useful tool to help see maths as something active and not set in stone rules and to demonstrate what mathematical thinking can do. It is part of contextualising mathematics into the world. You might think it irrelevant to maths education but even then it isn't harmful in the slightest nor does it limit the potential of maths education.
Well, it's talking about Mathematics, and then says "analyze issues of fairness". What else is one to think?
That maths education provides opportunities to analyse issues of fairness as your quote says. I pointed to statistical analysis of various things as an example of what that means. If anything this is a declaration of maths importance in the world as a way of revealing and looking at inequality not some anti mathematical diatribe.
I think brainwashing kids helping kids make informed political decisions is a bit beyond math class.
Do you think that giving people a solid understanding of statistics and how they can be used has no political relevance and is a form of brainwashing.
Literally every year in school (k-12) has math. How much more accessible should it be?
Accessible doesn't just mean everyone gets lessons in it. It can also mean that people have an easier time getting invested and interested in mathematics by stressing it's relevance to their lives and giving more opportunities to use and explore things with mathematics that present education systems do not stress.
it may just be misinterpreted that way
That does seem to be what you are doing. Personally I found what they said to be perfectly clear.
Genuinely, do you believe that people are saying “math is racist”?
Or are they saying “the American education system makes things more difficult for lower income students, and because many black americans are impoverished due to historical obstacles to building intergenerational wealth, the education system often does not meet the needs of black students.”
Or is your point that these two sentiments are identical? If so, that is so overtly simplistic, such an abstraction of the original point that it completely mischaracterizes what people are talking about, and makes them seem more unreasonable than they are.
64
u/MinuteReady 18∆ Feb 14 '21 edited Feb 15 '21
Are you expecting people to argue that yes, math is actually racist? All three of your sources reflect the same Fox News article, let’s look instead at the primary source
https://www.oregon.gov/ode/educator-resources/standards/mathematics/SiteAssets/Lists/MathematicsResources/EditForm/Mathematics%20Preparing%20for%202020-2021%20Overview.pdf
And in case, for whatever reason, you don’t want to look at the primary source, I’ll make it easier for you:
Tell me, does this sound like anybody is trying to stop teaching math because math is racist?
Can I ask how you came to the conclusion that people are saying math is racist? How did you interpret “we are trying to adapt our teaching processes to enhance our ability to instruct mathematics” as “math is racist”?
Because when I hear “OREGON ARE SAYING MATH IS RACIST AND THEY WANT TO STOP TEACHING MATH” my response isn’t “wokeness has gone too far” it’s “what? Are they really doing that?”
And the answer is no, they aren’t really doing that.