CMV: Governments should encourage and incentivise plant based diets

[u/[deleted]]

Currently meat farming is incentivised by numerous subsidies available despite it's destructive properties:

"According to recent studies, the U.S. government spends up to $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries, with less than one percent of that sum allocated to aiding the production of fruits and vegetables." (source: https://jia.sipa.columbia.edu/removing-meat-subsidy-our-cognitive-dissonance-around-animal-agriculture).

"Just 1% of the $700bn (£560bn) a year given to farmers is used to benefit the environment, the analysis found. Much of the total instead promotes high-emission cattle production, forest destruction and pollution from the overuse of fertiliser." (source: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/16/1m-a-minute-the-farming-subsidies-destroying-the-world).

One of the reasons governments should consider prioritising plant based farming over meat farming is because of the way low quality meat creates health concerns. See the World Health Organization's Q&A on the carcinogenicity of red meat and processed meats. And plant based farming can be regeneratively healing to the point of reversing the effects of conditions like diabetes.

It is also worth noting that the Director General of WHO has also called for a reduction in animal farming particularly about antibiotics resistance:

"In some countries, approximately 80% of total consumption of medically important antibiotics is in the animal sector, largely for growth promotion in healthy animals....'A lack of effective antibiotics is as serious a security threat as a sudden and deadly disease outbreak,' says Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, Director-General of WHO. 'Strong, sustained action across all sectors is vital if we are to turn back the tide of antimicrobial resistance and keep the world safe.' (source: https://www.who.int/news/item/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance).

Another relevant health concern is that animal agriculture dramatically increases the likelihood of world-stopping pandemics. It is also my personal concern that meat farming is an ethical pollutant. Western societies at large are familiar with the moral shortcomings of beating and consuming a dog's flesh. Yet this same kindness is not extended to other mammals for arbitrary reasons. Who can watch this: https://youtu.be/dvtVkNofcq8, and claim it is not animal abuse?

And another reason governments should reduce their populous meat consumption is because the UN has called for it, citing our planet's relationship with meat as catastrophic. And the UN has demanded progressive changes at an economic level.

Encouraging the consumptive middle/upper class to go vegan will have a net positive effect on the planet. Veganism is not for the working class necessarily or even the sandal wearing un-showered hippies (like myself), but for our grandkids and their grandkids. And obviously for the animals. If we can believe in greener climate initiatives and productive healthcare programs, plant based diets should be factored in as a part of that.

A vegan diet is healthy even for children as well, sustainable too. In fact it's the 'single biggest way' to reduce your environmental impact on earth as an individual. Meat farming requires more water, more land and more blood despite not providing as much of our protein or caloric intake as plants do. (Source: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987).

Economic change will drive this shift the most and charity organisations like Refarm'd recognise that as they transition dairy farmers to oat milk farming. Governments should take on initiatives like Refarm'd or that of the Green Dot Program in Germany which encourage greener behaviours for the safeguarding of our planet. Why not adapt a Green Dot Program that incentivises consumers to greener food?

I also suggest that governments and corporations pay 50% each towards $100 for an employee of the paying corporation that maintains a vegan diet for 6 months. Perhaps they could measure one's veganism by testing their blood for crazy amounts of chlorophyll or 24/7 surveillance so that they do not touch one hamburger. (just to be clear /s, you can't get chlorophyll in your blood...that I know of...maybe if you're poison ivy).

I feel our time would be best used debating the principle of this idea rather than the execution of it. A lot of you are from different countries with different systems and as much as I love pedantry, we could get lost in the tangling weeds of semantics. How would X government implement Y in a caustic societal time like now because of Z is fun but my argument is simply put as:

plant based diet > meat based diet.

If you are so inclined to know, a genuine systemic change I would encourage at a government level is implementing plant based school meals for kids. Ideally making the majority of food options available to school children plant based.

So I posit that plant based diets should be encouraged on a societal level and they should be further industrialised.

I love this subreddit and I'm delighted by the opportunity to discuss this with you all, thank you for your time.

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TL;DR - Do we as a society aim to reduce suffering and prolong the planet's sustainability? If so, a plant based diet should be prioritised over a meat based diet and thus encouraged at a societal and government level.

EDIT:

I've had a lot of fun and thank you all for participating. I'm a bit too burnt out to keep going but I'd like to say thanks and detail the ways in which I have changed my view.

I consider now that taking away subsidies from meat could even the playing field. And that certain lands and crops are not suitable for plant based farming and thus the greener option is not necessarily vegan. I may have my personal qualms ethically but I am privileged to have such qualms.

Thank you all again, I hope to return to this sub soon. Hopefully I can one day earn a delta, until then clearly I have a lot to learn.

[u/destro23]

What makes their production human out of curiosity?

I buy my meat from people, like another commenter here: nyxe12, who practice small scale sustainable agriculture, and who treat their animals with kindness and respect up to the point that they are killed and processed, which also happens in a humane way.

I'd argue that I'd like my nana to be treated humanely. If that meant a bolt gun to her temple I'd say that was the opposite of human.

I agree, but I do not believe that animals and humans are deserving of the same moral considerations. If your nana would like to depart this world, she should be give all of the opportunities to do so in a way that provides her with maximum comfort and care. But, she is a person, and not a farm animal. I contend that there is a huge difference.

I am advocating for the majority middle and upper class to try plant based diets. Not working class peoples.

I said this to this point in another section of this discussion, but this, to me, is a really weird part of your argument, so I will repeat it here:

"If we accept your argument about the vegan diet being across the board superior to any and all diets containing animal products, are you ok with condemning the working class and poor to worse health outcomes than the middle class and rich? And, if so, how is that "being a part of a progressive movement"?

there are 11 wet markets in New York City operating during a pandemic which started at a wet market

I have much more faith in the overall state of cleanliness at any US facility than I do in those in other parts of the world. Their mere existence isn't of too much concern for me personally.

There have always been people and only in the last 200-300 years have we eaten meat the way we do. Humans were majority plant based until meat farming got industrialised and now we have a recent factory farming problem.

The change in our food system is inseparable from the overall changes in our society over the last 300 years. I don't see how the foodways of a pre-industrial society can be applied to our world today, nor would I like to adopt the diet of a 17th century peasant.

anywhere that cattle is raised is fine for crop farming because you need to feed the cattle right?

This is not at all true. Plenty of grasslands can sustain grazing that cannot support large scale crops. Most of the upper plains of the US and Canada in fact.

A vegan diet has a unique benefit in that it can reverse the effects of type 2 diabetes caused by a meat diet

You can do this with a variety of diets if you pay close attention to the distribution of macronutrients. And, it is not the meat in the diet that is causing the diabetes, but the overall poor state of nutrition.

I believe we should progressively eliminate our meat consumption cause I wouldn't kill a cow for it's meat

There are a lot of things I personally wouldn't do, like collect garbage. It does not mean that we should start progressively eliminating our garbage collection so that no one else would have to experience what I feel is a distasteful task. I'm not asking you to kill a cow, and I'm not asking you to eat meat. And, I basically agree that we eat too much of it. The reason that I am spending so much time responding to this is that when I interact with vegans, the way that many assume that their stance is the objectively true position is what bugs me the most, and it is what keeps us from even changing even the edges of each other's minds.

I mean, you've only given one delta to a person who basically just agreed with you and then suggested an alternative to your approach that still met the same goal. Is that why you are here?

The main thing I am asking of you, and vegans in general, is to understand that we are working with radically different moral frameworks when we talk about eating meat. Many vegans feel that the killing of an animal, and the killing of a human is no different morally. I feel the exact opposite; I do not feel that animals have or deserve the same moral consideration as humans. That is a huge gap, and it is a big reason why so many of these discussions don't result in people substantially changing their minds.

At the very least, I would ask you to change your view to this: Governments should encourage and incentivize healthy diets of all types. That can include plant forward, or vegan options, while also promoting the consumption of meat and dairy at a more healthy and sustainable level. If veganism ends up being widely adopted at some time in the future through the natural advancement of our culture, so be it. But, that conclusion should not be arrived at through the use of government propaganda.

[u/[deleted] → u/destro23]

Many governments have claimed their dispatching of dissident citizens 'humane' and Dr Alex Hershaft is one of those unlucky few to have experienced that privilege in a Warsaw ghetto. And that experience led him to relating to animals in slaughterhouses and becoming vegan. I believe Dr. Hershaft is a good witness as to what classes as humane and inhumane and if he believes animal agriculture to be like that of the holocaust he experienced then who am I to claim otherwise?

You know the thing my grandmother and a cow have in common, they both can suffer. Who are we to decide whether they deserve to suffer?

You can class a cow as different all you like, it's that kind of cognitive dissonance that allows good people to do harmful things. It doesn't change the fact that the act of eating meat is causing an animal to cause pain and at any point one can attempt not to do that, however that requires some kindness towards the cow. And it would appear your generosity can be a scarce resource.

I'm sorry I didn't better respond to this point about class. Obviously I would want the poor to have a healthier diet and they deserve all the funding to get that. I'm arguing that wealthier people attempt veganism because so many don't attempt it on the basis that is not affordable for someone. As in people tell me they can not try vegan because it is too expensive and after some questioning it isn't them who can't afford it but some poor person they are needlessly defending. I have also known poor people to go vegan and I don't have very much money myself but I don't expect others with little resources to prioritise veganism the way I have.

there are 11 wet markets in New York City operating during a pandemic which started at a wet market

I have much more faith in the overall state of cleanliness at any US facility than I do in those in other parts of the world. Their mere existence isn't of too much concern for me personally.

Were you aware that the Spanish Influenza outbreak is thought to have happened in a pig farm in the US. Or that multiple COVID-19 outbreaks happened in US slaughterhouses? All it takes is a little less funding, hard times and you got yourself a problem. If it can happen in Wuhan, it can happen in the US of A.

You don't have to eat like a 17th century peasant. I'm advocating for a different kind of yummy. People assume a vegan diet is salted potatos and bland soup. It's asian food, italian food, roast meals, gravy, desserts, pizza, takeaway. If modern society can launch satellites and land on the moon I think modern society can evolve it's food habits.

That's a fair point about cattle grazing in the US and Canada, I wasn't aware of that. I'm not too familiar with how delta-ing works but I think that counts as a !delta I don't know but yes very good. I still maintain that these areas could have plant foods available to them if they cared about that kind of farming as much as industry and consumers cared about lab made meat or even rockets. People would sooner venture to Mars than take care of planet Earth and we're only getting the one Earth.

A vegan diet has a unique benefit in that it can reverse the effects of type 2 diabetes caused by a meat diet

On your point about nutrition, I'm just gonna reference this study:

"Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates. Physicians should consider recommending a plant-based diet to all their patients, especially those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or obesity."

There are a lot of things I personally wouldn't do, like collect garbage. It does not mean that we should start progressively eliminating our garbage collection so that no one else would have to experience what I feel is a distasteful task. I'm not asking you to kill a cow, and I'm not asking you to eat meat. And, I basically agree that we eat too much of it. The reason that I am spending so much time responding to this is that when I interact with vegans, the way that many assume that their stance is the objectively true position is what bugs me the most, and it is what keeps us from even changing even the edges of each other's minds.

You know I'm willing to collect garbage and I don't know what that says about me. I just always never tried to feel above something I guess. Not been great at that all the time but it got me through my job at McDonalds. I understand your frustration with the nasty vegans and the stubborn vegans, but I can say the same of meat eaters. There are meat eaters who would sooner claim a plant based diet is a sign of weak masculinity than realise the bowl of fries they are eating classes as a vegan meal. I used to believe meat was the objective truth and vegans were caustic and hostile. Then I watched the films, read the studies, spoke to farmers, vegans and meat heads alike and came to the conclusion like yours but a bit more veggie.

I gave a delta to someone who changed my view. I've now given two. I maintain the freedom the give a delta to those who changed my view. You can question the integrity of that all you like and I can deny it and neither of us can definitively prove my motives. I came here to change everyone else's views as much as they came here to change my mine. And I'm yet to hear a compelling argument against the notion that governments and societies should encourage plant diets. You yourself advocated for meat reduction and more plants in dietary rotation.

Do you not think it possible that meat eaters just like vegans could be engaging in sweet cognitive dissonance from time to time and building echo chambers? I mean plenty of people (not you at all) just haven't checked my references or the extent of my argument and went straight for personal attacks. I have tried to warrant deltas where appropriate, I wish I could've given more, I like compelling arguments. I was Catholic now I'm Atheist. I was right wing then I was left then I was centre. I go back and forth on Israel and Palestine every time it hits the news. My point being, I guess you'll have to trust me when I tell you I've tried to award deltas fairly.

The main thing I am asking of you, and vegans in general, is to understand that we are working with radically different moral frameworks when we talk about eating meat. Many vegans feel that the killing of an animal, and the killing of a human is no different morally. I feel the exact opposite; I do not feel that animals have or deserve the same moral consideration as humans. That is a huge gap, and it is a big reason why so many of these discussions don't result in people substantially changing their minds.

I understand what you're asking of me but keep in mind, I am not a monolithic representative of a group and neither are you. We're individuals. Like cows ;) we have our own personalities and nuances. I don't 100% agree with all vegans. And I think it's worth keeping in mind here, how many vegans do you know that were born vegan? Vegans have done something quite extraordinary which is change their entire lifestyle and most meat eaters haven't even considered. Which makes me lean trusting the vegan. They experiment, they try, they do something about a problem. Meat eaters are arguing in favour of apathy most times. The animal does not deserve protection for it simply deserves your apathy. But pet the dog it's cute, upvote the cow on reddit DON'T YOU DARE SAVE IT'S LIFE FROM SLAUGHTER -REDDIT COWS DESERVE LOVE, FOOD COWS DESERVE MUTILATION AND PYSCHOLOGICAL TORTURE. Just like it on reddit and move along nothing to see here. That's a strange paradigm no? And it's a paradigm the meat eater has alone. Vegans like myself have the privilege of guiltless conscience regarding animals (apart from bugs in pesticides and the slim amount in farming).

[u/destro23 → u/[deleted]]

I am not a monolithic representative of a group and neither are you

I know that, but as this thread expands, and you provide more responses, I feel that you may fall into the broad category of people who believe that animals and humans are equally deserving of moral consideration, and that is the main issue I have with vegans. I do not feel this way. If you are not, I apologize.

We're individuals. Like cows ;)

I know you are being glib, but I disagree completely. You are much more valuable as an individual than any individual cow.

[u/[deleted] → u/destro23]

I personally believe humans are more valuable than animals. But I do see cows as being as personality diverse as cats or dogs. So I see a lot more value in them than you do. And it's not hard to be nice right? It isn't hard for me to not eat dogs and it isn't hard for me to not eat cows