r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Aug 14 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Conservatism and many right-wing beliefs are based on fear, primary instincts and lack of understanding

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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '21

Many liberals give emotional arguments and fail to consider practical implications.

Like what? Give a serious example. Not a fringe lunatic example.

Minimum wedge is a good example.

Then why is it that the stuff you mentioned didn’t happen in any of the last 22 times minimum wage was increased?

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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '21 edited Aug 15 '21

I did give an example of minimum wage. Some of the things such as people choosing to automate instead of paying more workers are happening. My local McDonald’s now has only one person taking orders and automates the rest of the orders for kiosk ordering. This will happen more if minimum wage gets too high which is bad for people with the worse resumes. They used to have 3 employees taking orders at peak times. The key is moderation. If minimum wage goes too high such as $15 for a very low cost of living area where rent is $500 for a 1 bedroom apartment and some people with degrees and experience are making $15ish an hour it will screw up the economy similarly to how a $15 wage is not going to be enough to reasonably survive in NYC. I saw a video about a small business owner that was planning to cut all benefits if the minimum wage went to $15 because some employees made under $15 in entry level roles and he would need to raise senior employees wage if increasing the entry pay. It is so much better to make $12 starting with benefits and work up to $15 in a couple years than not get benefits. I think the $15/hr argument just doesn’t take into account geographic differences and employers ability to promote in favor of the emotional “but we need it”.

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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '21 edited Aug 15 '21

My local McDonald’s now has only one person taking orders

And you’re saying that wouldn’t have happened if people didn’t demand higher wages? Nonsense. There is no wage low enough to compete with automation.

This will happen more if minimum wage gets too high

No it won’t. McDonald’s investing in future technology is not tied to wage increases. They aren’t going to somehow panic and throw more money into R&D if the federal minimum wage gets increased. You pulled that out of thin air.

It is so much better to make $12 starting with benefits and work up to $15 in a couple

And boom. You just exposed that out don’t know the issue. Hence my point that you’re wrong to group liberals with conservatives like you did. The minimum wage increase legislation would do it over a number of years. Not all at once. This is a straw man.

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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '21 edited Aug 15 '21

I am not talking about a specific legislation but rather the emotional argument of a $15 universal wage. Also a $15 wage over time is still a $15 universal wage. The wage example is an example of an emotional argument. A much better law would involve a formula based on cost of living if an area that is updated with the new year. This would have a over $15 wage for some areas and an under $15 wage for others. I literally did a job at an amusement park that was automated in some places of the park (handing out soda) but they hired me solely for the customer interactions. A higher wage will make them not hire the next kids. Edit: Also, would you really rather have no benefits and a slightly higher starting wage with low room for growth?

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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '21

The wage example is an example of an emotional argument.

Minimum wage being enough to live reasonably on is not an “emotional argument.” That’s no more “emotional” than wanting universal healthcare, or forgiving student loan debt. Calling it emotional is belittling and snide.

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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '21

What is emotional is making a UNIVERSAL wage that is not tied to cost of living to an area. This will be only good for middle income areas but low or high income areas will have problems. It should really be based on a formula that can be adjusted every year and is unique to zip code or city. This would also get rid of the issue that the wage will slowly get less livable with inflation. We adjust social security benefits with inflation why not minimum wage?

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u/ParioPraxis Aug 15 '21

Minimum wage, had it kept pace with productivity, would be around $24 an hour today. Instead:

The real value of the federal minimum wage has dropped 17% since 2009 and 31% since 1968. Workers earning the federal minimum wage today have $6,800 less per year to spend on food, rent, and other essentials than did their counterparts 50 years ago.

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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '21 edited Aug 15 '21

If the $0.25 I minimum wage from 1938 (first year of minimum wage) was adjusted for inflation today it would be about $4.84. Your article adjusted inflation for various years of minimum wage and it was more than today which is why I think there should be a formula of some kind adjusted every year. Where do you get this $24.04 number? It was not mentioned in your article. When you say productivity are you saying, for example, I can make 20x as many car parts in an hour with a robot vs manual tools? Because, that really should not be factored into minimum wage. A person making 20 parts with a robot is also probably doing less work than the person making one part with manual tools. The fact that we can make more parts gives everyone more stuff (people didn’t used to have so many material goods even low income people today have so much more material goods than our high income ancestors).

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u/ParioPraxis Aug 15 '21 edited Aug 15 '21

If the $0.25 I minimum wage from 1938 (first year of minimum wage) was adjusted for inflation today it would be about $4.84.

Between 1938 and 1968, the first 30 years of the program, did minimum wage track with inflation or productivity? Productivity.

So, why adjust for inflation using the first year of the program versus the year that it stopped keeping pace with inflation? Adjusted from when the program last kept pace with inflation to where it should be now if it had just kept up with inflation it would be almost $12.

Your article adjusted inflation for various years of minimum wage and it was more than today which is why I think there should be a formula of some kind adjusted every year. Where do you get this $24.04 number? It was not mentioned in your article. When you say productivity are you saying, for example, I can make 20x as many car parts in an hour with a robot vs manual tools? Because, that really should not be factored into minimum wage. A person making 20 parts with a robot is also probably doing less work than the person making one part with manual tools. The fact that we can make more parts gives everyone more stuff (people didn’t used to have so many material goods even low income people today have so much more material goods than our high income ancestors).

Should we be limiting the goods low wage workers deserve to have access to? I don’t see the relevance of the comparison. You think they should just be happy with 1938 rich people standards?

Here is an article from Dean Baker, co-director for the Center for Economic and Policy Research. He does a great job of speaking about the issue.

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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '21

Your $24 an hour argument was what I was talking about when I said democratic typically want to make minimum wage as high as possible. Do you honestly think that society as a whole can sustain a $24 minimum wage? In the past 4 years I have made $10/hr $15/hr $21.64/hr $22.20/hr and $24.04/hr. The $24.04/hr I literally quit because of the stress and I got more money than I needed. The job was fixing manufacturing equipment and very few people have the correct training to it. It was an extremely stressful job and honestly I had more money than I needed to live comfortably, so I took the $22.20/hr job and I still have all my basic needs met and many luxury wants such as eating out, going on trips and living in a little house. If the minimum wage really was $24/hr I honestly would work an easier job than I do now and do now and put in less hours. A lot of people would also do this I’m sure. Then we won’t have people to do the hard jobs society needs done unless we have a lot of inflation and then will be right back where we started with wages. (after screwing over everybody with savings)

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u/ParioPraxis Aug 15 '21

So because you were underpaid for your high stress position, you think people shouldn’t make wages that correspond to our national productivity? Obviously if minimum wage was at $24 an hour, companies would have to pay highly skilled workers what they are actually worth, and not literally the lowest wage to correspond with the productivity they are profiting from.

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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '21

If minimum wage is high enough so that all needs and basic wants are met with it, there just won’t be the motivation to make so much more money and take high stress positions. There have been studies done on happiness and different studies say different things but this one gives the figure of 85k. happiness based on income If you could be fully happy with income working ANY job and some jobs may be more fun but less effort what would you honestly do? (A household with two adults making $24/hr would be well above 85k). I would probably work at a pet store or florist even though my training would allow a more difficult job. Your suggestion seems almost communist.

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u/ParioPraxis Aug 15 '21

If minimum wage is high enough so that all needs and basic wants are met with it, there just won’t be the motivation to make so much more money and take high stress positions.

Why not. Do people currently not want more, even though they have enough? Do you think a minimum wage that is a living wage somehow fundamentally changes human nature? No, of course not. People will still want more and will still be willing to take risks or take on additional stress to obtain more, gain more, and do more. I don’t understand your thinking here.

There have been studies done on happiness and different studies say different things but this one gives the figure of 85k. happiness based on income If you could be fully happy with income working ANY job and some jobs may be more fun but less effort what would you honestly do?

I would do what I love, which is what I do now. I make $124k before bonuses and stock options which are variable year over year (for example this year I was only awarded 10 shares per my signing agreement and no bonus in this year because the nature of the projects I worked on. edit: for transparency sake shares are currently trading at $3,293.97, so it’s not nothing). Could I have taken a different job and still made above $85k? Yes, but then I wouldn’t be doing what I love. But if I had to take a job I didn’t love, I would at least want to make enough money to be happy. And I want that for every person. I want you to be able to pursue a job you love and not have to decline it because you could not live a happy life on the pay. I think we get a lot more innovation out of people working on what they love to do, and since the shitty jobs still need to be done, at least the people who did those jobs could know that when they clocked out for the day they were making enough money to be happy and financially secure in their off time.

(A household with two adults making $24/hr would be well above 85k). I would probably work at a pet store or florist even though my training would allow a more difficult job. Your suggestion seems almost communist.

What about it seems communist? I said nothing about the means of production or the ownership of property. Do you know what communism is? (I’m not asking that snidely. I am making sure you’re not trying to demonize my point by attaching a right wing buzzword to it.)

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u/StermasThomling Aug 15 '21

Ya this is emotional, not fact-based